REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

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REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by Guges Mk3 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:15 am

[quote name='The Vainguard' date='29 March 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1269906852' post='2309924']
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When conducting an accuracy test with a pistol, it's important to be sure of what you're testing. For example, clamping the frame or grip of the pistol in place and firing away at a target tests how accurate the pistol will be for someone who uses the frame or grip to aim (which is useful for certain pistols using red dot sights anchored to the frame). The outer barrel, slide, recoil rod, and inner barrel will be moving in relation to the frame with each shot; as such you are testing the variation between inner barrel and frame in addition to the variation in the barrel itself. Most people use a slide mounted sight - that is, iron sights or an Optima 2000 type red dot, so in this test I will be using the sights on the pistol to align it for each shot (testing with variation between inner barrel and slide in play).

For this purpose I spent a few minutes constructing a crude adaptor for an old camera tripod. The adaptor consists of a piece of polycarbonate sheet which mounts to the camera tripod with a nut, then to the bottom half of a scope ring via two Allen screws. This allows the tripod to be used for anything with a Weaver or Picatinny accessory rail in a suitable location, including the Glock pistol to be tested.

I loaded the pistol's magazine with 10 KSC Perfect .25g BBs, a common brand and weight. Then I filled the magazine with unlubricated propane until excess gas spurted from around the fill valve. For general use, propane should be lubricated to maintain the O-rings of the magazine valves and piston head, but to ensure consistency of the tests unlubricated propane is best. After allowing the magazine to sit for 10 minutes for its temperature to return to normal, I locked the slide of the pistol back, inserted the magazine, and hit the slide stop lever to chamber the first BB.

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My target was taped to a cardboard box, so that every BB would make a hole in the target, but not ricochet back through and distort the grouping. The tripod was positioned so that the pistol's barrel measured 20 feet away from the target. I aimed carefully at the center of the target, ignoring the three dots of the sights and instead focusing on the dark outlines of front and rear sights for the most precise sight picture. When satisfied, I locked the tripod's mounting bracket in place and fired. For the subsequent shots, I allowed 10 seconds for the magazine to warm, carefully checked the alignment of the sights, adjusted if completely necessary, and fired again.

When the test was complete, I removed the upper assembly from the pistol, leaving its frame locked into the tripod, and replaced the barrel with the First Factory unit. I then taped a new target in place and repeated the process exactly.

The results? Surprising. The PDI 6.01mm barrel grouped thusly (1" grid):
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Whereas the First Factory 6.03mm barrel actually performed a little better:
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On measuring the size of the groups, from center to center of the holes farthest apart, it turns out that the FF barrel produced a grouping of 28mm, while the PDI barrel came in at 39mm. About a centimeter of difference in group size at 20'.

I felt that another test was required to cement the groups. This time, I used the same testing procedures, but fired at 35' and with 15 shots. My hope was that the greater distance and number of rounds fired would lessen the possibility of error. Additionally, I considered the possibility of variance in assembly, and uninstalled and reinstalled the 6.03 barrel before performing more tests. For obvious reasons the 6.01 barrel would also be reinstalled.

Once again, the First Factory barrel outperformed the PDI barrel in accuracy. This time, the group produced by the PDI 6.01 measured 59mm, while the First Factory grouped a tad tighter at 50mm. So, the difference is not as great in this test, especially considering the increased distance, however the PDI still didn't beat out the FF.
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Comparing products using a sample size of one is unlikely to produce exact numbers that can be applied over an entire range of products. However, I would cautiously conclude that, at least in a Tokyo Marui Glock with a barrel length of 112mm, a First Factory 6.03mm barrel is slightly preferable from an accuracy standpoint. The 6.01mm barrel can be expected to produce a bit more power in a gas gun, though I do not have a chronograph and so will have to wait until a skirmish to confirm this.

Of course, I am left to wonder why a 6.03mm barrel would have better accuracy than a 6.01mm barrel. The immediate answer which comes to mind is the quality of the barrel in matters other than interior diameter, and <a href="http://www.6millimeter.info/joomla/inde ... &Itemid=42" target="_blank">this test</a> offers one possible explanation. The pictures and a very rudimentary knowledge of German make it clear that a precise measuring machine was taken to a number of barrels, measuring their roundness. Scrolling down, one can see that PDI and Prometheus both were very close to a perfect microscopic circle, but Prometheus (AKA First Factory) was a little better. Notably, the PDI barrel beat out both DB Customs 6.01 barrels.

In conclusion, inner barrel quality is more than mere diameter - accuracy tests may bear this out. Both PDI and Prometheus/FF make great choices for inner barrels, but based on what I have observed in my testing and experience, out of the two PDI is the choice for power, Prometheus/First Factory for top accuracy. If you have a different testing procedure to suggest I would be happy to read it and if it is not too time consuming or expensive, try it out.

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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by romaro1 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:21 pm

Now this is different for AEGS. I own a PDI 6.01 EDGI 6.01 and a DBC 6.01. Note my pdi is 5 years old give or take. I also own a mad-bull 6.03 and a promy 6.03. All these are 509mm long. The tighter barrels all help at long range as they keep the grouping tighter. Now in my book I like the Edgi the most even tho you can't really tell the difference in accuracy between the PDI and the EDGI. Now I do not have a video and I am to lazy to take one lol. Gas guns on the other hand are not my thing by his test the facts speak for them self but I would like to see shots at longer range like 100+. My TM desert eagle has a awesome range and would be able to hit someone over 100 feet. I would like to see a test showing the grouping at 100 feet. Please note make sure you use good BBs with a 6.01 barrel always.

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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by Fatal » Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:38 pm

I think you should do a test, oh wait your too lazy your post is null and void. Thank you, come again. :wink:
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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by Guges Mk3 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:38 pm

Romaro1 without due testing on your half in a controlled environment ...your statements are known to be not taken seriouosly.

If you can substantiate any of your facts with simple physical explanations in physical terms, I would "highly" recommend it and would be open to learning from you.
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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by romaro1 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:25 pm

Well right now I can not make a video due to work and I am on a work computer now but there is a kid that did a similar test and posted it on a forum in Asia. I have had no luck finding that web site again tho. If you know of it that would be great. It was Philippines forum and they also had some other very nice inner barrel tests. As soon as I get time tho I will for sure take photos and do a test but I can only do the test out side due to I do a lot of long range tests and My cqb field does not have any long areas so wind will be a factor.

I will chose a day if I can where there is almost no wind. I will also do the test with My CA AUG. Any preferences on how you would like me to test those barrels. O and at what ranges would you like to see the accuracy test done at. Now I can't shoot 250 feet my gun only shoots at 317 fps with 0.28g G&G BBS MAX RANGE IS 200 feet give or take. Now I do have 1000 grand master 0.27gs I can use in the test but I would rather use them in my CA M24 LOL. People will not take me seriously lol I have only posted 12 times and most of it was in the commerce. I am just trying to contribute to every forum I am on :D s

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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by Fatal » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:28 pm

Just because you have a low post count doesn't mean people won't take you serious. What you say in your posts dictates if people will take you seriously.
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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by romaro1 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:54 pm

Well there are a few people on a few different forums that have done these tests. So I am not the only one to claim that a 6.01 is better, but my barrels are on the long side. Now shorter 6.01 mm barrels like the p90 247mm long may not be better then a 6.03. I don't have a shorter 6.01 to test so I will just use my 509 mm long barrels for my test. Now I am not sure when I will get the time to do the test as I am very busy. These will be that different ranges I will test 50 /75/100/125/150 feet 6.03 vs 6.01. My promy barrel vs my DBC. The DBC 6.01 is a great barrel but I did notice that it is not as good as the EDGI. If the DBC can beat the promy then odds are the other 2 can do it to. Now I will be using a GUARDER bucking with scs nub with all my barrels. I am off work thursday so lets hope the wind is on the low side for the test. Time to get some rep on this forum lol.

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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by Guges Mk3 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:20 am

Not looking for test number...

I am looking for a "physical" explanation on why one barrel is/would be better then another.

When you don't have a control in your test and when you don't have proper testing procedures...all test results are moot.
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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by marinefan2 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:46 am

A physical explanation of why something "should" be better is just a hypothesis if not supported by proper experimentation.
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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by Guges Mk3 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:56 am

marinefan2 wrote:A physical explanation of why something "should" be better is just a hypothesis if not supported by proper experimentation.
But, is the foundation for a proper experimentation.

If you don't know why something works like it does and you don't have a hypothesis. Then what are you testing?
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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by marinefan2 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:14 am

His experiment would be testing your hypothesis except he is going in with the mindset that a 6.01mm barrel is more accurate. If he is able to remove the variables then I believe it should be an accurate experiment to test your "plunger" theory and the need for a popper air buffer between the barrel and bb.
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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by Bunny » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:25 am

marinefan2 wrote:His experiment would be testing your hypothesis except he is going in with the mindset that a 6.01mm barrel is more accurate.
If you're doing proper experimentation you shouldn't be going into it with a mindset that it's going to turn out a certain way. Scientific testing should be unbiased.

I'm interested to see the results of any tests.

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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by marinefan2 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:38 am

marinefan2 wrote:If he is able to remove the variables then I believe it should be an accurate experiment
I also would be very interested in the results. Although I have a feeling that there will always be some debate over this subject.
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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by romaro1 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:32 pm

I already own the barrels. I already know witch ones are the most accurate. I have played with them on the field with the same bucking and nub and I have seen the difference. This forum is the only one that I have seen act like this. Guges Mk3 did his test outside the same way I will be doing mine. I will be using the same brand of BBs and measuring the diameter of the grouping is mm. I will only do the test on a day where wind is not a factor or there is very little wind. The test will be done with the same gun. Now wy don't you guys wait till I get the time to prove to you the results before posting again. I only posted that it is different with AEGs due to I have seen the difference myself. Now maby I should of did the test then posted. But I am very busy and I am hoping It will be a nice day on Thursday to do the test. I am sure most of you do not own a PDI/DBC/EDGI 6.01 barrel. I have the tools to prove once and for all 6.01 barrels are better. Now with his test with his GBB it shows that the 6.03 is better I am trying to prove that that is different with AEGS. look at it this way wy do most airsoft snipers the ones that have been a sniper for years use a 6.01 barrel think that over please.

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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by BOB421C4 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:44 pm

I would like to see your test even though I am pretty sure that the 6.01mm barrel will prevail over the 6.03mm as it did in the test that ASGI did. Also, I recently ordered a 6.01mm tbb for my AEG, so I am kind of nervous and want to make sure that I made the correct decision.

Good luck with your experiment romaro, and hopefully the whether cooperates for your test.
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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by Rebby13 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:44 pm

I thought the general idea for TBB's on aegs was that 6.01s do have better accuracy and range

But due to the size of the barrel is notorious for jamming full-auto and should only be used for dmr aegs

...that's just the impression I've had...

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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by Guges Mk3 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:09 am

Far from it. Proven over and over..6.01 is to tight for general use. You have to use a 5.95mm bb
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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by neoM4tech » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:39 pm

hope you like reading. a reference guide i found helpful

The first thing I want to get into is the hop up/barrel group. First, what all is included within this? The parts that make up this area are: Chamber, Arm, Nub, Adjustment Dials, C-Clip, Bucking, Chamber Spring, and the Barrel. First, let’s start off with some basic information on how the standard hop up system works.

When the gearbox is fired, a BB is fed into the chamber from the magazine. This is done by the tappet and air nozzle. When the nozzle comes forward to chamber the round and seal against the bucking lips, air begins to be released from the gearbox from the compression components. The BB begins to move and hits the “speed bump” on the bucking. This causes the BB to be “kicked” down to the bottom of the barrel. This kick causes a backwards spin due to friction applied by the bucking which pushes the BB down inside the barrel. The time before the BB is stable and hop is applied is known as “slop”. Once useful motion is achieved, the BB begins to float to the top of the barrel and glides through the entirety of the barrel. An air cushion basically helps push the BB through the barrel, and it works with the aforementioned backspin on the BB to help it ride the top of the barrel.

Now let’s get into barrels. The barrel plays a vital role in DMRs, but not like you would think. It helps mostly with shot consistency. Let’s first start off with bore quality/smoothness. If the bore of a barrel isn’t completely smooth, a whole host of problems can occur. The most prominent is the collision of the BBs and barrel because of a rough bore. This will throw off your accuracy by a HUGE amount. It will also render your hop up completely useless as it will cause off-axis rotation. Another side effect is quite possibly the shredding of your BBs if it makes it through the barrel without a jam. Generally, the more expensive the barrel is, the better quality it is. Be sure to do the research on any product before you buy it, however.

Now that bore quality has been discussed, let’s get into bore size. Bore size affects the BB trajectory a lot as well. When the bore is really tight (for example, 6.01mm), the BB doesn’t have as much space to bounce around and stabilize which makes it more prone to colliding with the sides of the barrel. This causes an increased amount of off-axis spin because of the more frequent amount of bouncing. Because of this lack of room, when it hits the hop up, it most likely gets pushed down hitting the bottom of the barrel which, in turn, causes a change in the rotation/backspin. This is definitely a problem when trying to build a long range rifle. If your hop is distorted, you aren’t going to get the maximum range you want out of your rifle. That’s where the widebore concept comes into play.

Generally, when building a long range AEG/sniper rifle, you will want a bore than is no tighter than 6.03mm. Once you get any tighter than that, the BB doesn’t have enough room to bounce around and stabilize, and, frankly, it ends up hitting the barrel walls. The air cushion is much more predominate in a wider bore as well. Basically, the wider the better. Be careful not to undervolume the cylinder though. That can lead to problems.

Last, but definitely not least, is bore material. This is one of the more perplexing portions of the barrel group in my opinion. Currently it is being disputed that brass barrels are superior to steel barrels. I’m a firm believer that steel barrels are superior if the bore size, quality, and length are the same. This is due to the properties of the materials themselves. Brass, which is used in instruments, is good at transferring sounds (which are vibrations). This is not good. Every little vibration will move the barrel, which will, in effect, have the possibility of hitting the BB. You don’t want that, do you? Steel, which is heavier than brass, also does this, but at a much higher frequency which means less movement and quicker vibrations. That means the vibrations will move outward less, but happen more often. This gives it less of a chance of bumping the BB. By the way, that was all theory. We shall see what I come up with in my upcoming tests on barrel material.

With all that said, here is a list of what needs to be done to the barrel assembly and hop up:

- Stabilize inner barrel (Use Teflon tape, HS5 Barrel shims, and/or silicone grease on the outside of the inner barrel)
-Shim the hop up arm (Use Aluminum from a pop can, brass sheets, or tin foil. Other materials may work, just be sure to glue them to the arm)
-M nub or similar nub installed (will require modification of the arm) (Will eventually post pics of this)
-Flat hop, R hop, or similar
-Teflon Tape bucking mod (Anaerobic gasket maker will work as well, and is superior to the Teflon tape mod. I do both to make the barrel tight within the chamber)
-Hop Up O-Ring Mod (Putting O rings in front of the hop up chamber to cause a more lateral push back force against the gearbox. Enhances consistency and air seal)
-Polish everything on the hop up components that is metal(mother’s polish is my favorite)
-Thoroughly clean every rubber/plastic component with warm, soapy water (I like dish soap. Definitely do this to the bucking)

*copied from archer on AS

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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by SeawolfIV » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:46 pm

HS5 has a barrel lapping kit designed to increase bore consistency. I don't know if it improves performance or even works, but relevant information is linked.
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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by La Flare » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:21 pm

Does anyone have any experience with the Orga WBB?

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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by Archer » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:34 pm

I run one in my 416c that has been P*'d

before you decide to go that route, WBB's are more directed towards HPA guns where they can be overvolumed to compensate for the gap around the BB. It takes a lot more to get that same effect in an AEG, so they tend not to work as well.
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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by La Flare » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:02 pm

That makes sense with the change in barrel volume, thank you. I was thinking about trying it in an SMP. Did you get the HD(6.1) or the 6.23?

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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by Archer » Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:20 pm

I run an HD
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Re: REPOST: TBB does not mean better accuracy, 6.01 vs 6.03

Post by La Flare » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:00 pm

I was leaning towards that, 6.23 just seems like a pretty big jump

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