HISTORICAL: Uniform & Patch Question

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HISTORICAL: Uniform & Patch Question

Post by The_MoonUnit » Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:12 am

Although the charter disallows using any real military patches, tabs or isignias, it doesn't really address fakes. For instance, I want to put a team name tape on my jacket that reads "S.O.F." (the team I'm on). This would be acceptable, right? Also, I can wear a name tape on my BDU even though I'm not a member of the MAA, correct?
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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Erik » Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:53 am

Gabe has the final word on this, but if I recall correctly -

Wearing of team-specific insignia is authorized under the Charter. However, use of active military insignia, badges, or awards is prohibited.

Wearing of the MAA nametape and patch is restricted only to MAA Members. However, if you intend to join the MAA in the future, you might want to leave space open for the MAA nametape and patch on your uniform. The MAA nametape is centered above the LEFT uniform pocket. The MAA patch is centered 1/4" below the shoulder seam on the LEFT shoulder.

If you want a nametape with your name on it, that would be centered above the RIGHT uniform pocket. You want the ends of both nametapes to be even with the pocket edges.

All players are encouraged to wear the subdued "reversed" US Flag on the RIGHT shoulder, centeed 1/4" below the shoulder seam.

Anything else is up to you guys. Personally, I'd suggest collar insignia, like D12 uses. It looks cool, is inexpensive, and doesn't interfere with other uniform items. If you are interested, drop me a line and I can hook you up with my supplier.

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 02:58 AM: Message edited by: Erik ]</small>
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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Erik » Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:56 am

Since questions like this one occur every month or so, I'm going to take the liberty of writing up an "Airsoft Uniform Guide" detailing specific MAA and team uniforms and insignia.

Team Commanders, could you please PM me and let me know if your team has any specific uniform requirements, special badges, etc.

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 02:56 AM: Message edited by: Erik ]</small>
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Re: Uniform Question

Post by The_MoonUnit » Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:46 am

Sorry I didnt's specify what I meant by "name tape." I did not mean the MAA name tape, I realize you need to be a member to wear that. I just meant if I had a tape with my name on it, I'm still allowed to wear that to sanctioned events... which you seemed to say was alright. Thanks Erik.

Also, I pm'ed you with a quick question about your supplier.
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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Lazarus » Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:54 pm

Moonunit,
You can wear anything you want as long as you are not an MAA member. The MAA is a great organization but does not have any authority over non-members. Games that are sanctioned by the MAA are currently "open" to all players, members and non-members, in the interest of getting enough participation. As a non-member you have the right to chose to wear anything you want. Although I generally agree with most or all of the MAA rules, I do get annoyed that people continue to believe that the MAA has any authority over them as non-members. Do NOT get the impression that I am against the MAA in any way. I am against misinformation.

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Re: Uniform Question

Post by The_MoonUnit » Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:20 pm

Well I only asked because I didn't want to show up at an MAA sanctioned event just to find I'm not allowed to play because my uniform was our of "compliance." I wasn't aware that the MAA didn't enforce their rules at sanctioned events.
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Re: Uniform Question

Post by OscarBird » Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:33 pm

I have a standard US military black beret, but it has one of those generic "blue flash" things on it. Does this count as an active military insignia and therefore violate MAA regulations, or does it not count because it is generic/non unit-specific? I'm not an MAA member, (although I hope to be soon) but I still want to abide by the rules. Thanks.

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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Erik » Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:47 am

Originally posted by Lazarus:
The MAA is a great organization but does not have any authority over non-members.
Lazarus makes an excellent point. Although I have to admit do appreciate people asking about uniform etiquette, regardless of the MAA.

While I don't think anyone would be "barred" from an MAA game because of their uniform or insignia, as we've seen in other threads, some people can get really emotional about this subject. If I can offer good advice in order to avoid such conflicts, I'm happy to help out.

Oscarbird, on the subject of flashes - it's a tricky subject. Flashes are distinguished from unit to unit based on the colors and pattern. However, the vast majority of flashes are not so unique as to be readily identifiable as belonging to a particular unit. I wouldn't worry about wearing a flash unless:

1. It's something currently in use by another team (such as the black w/white border used by D12)

2. It's the current US Army flash with the blue field and stars on the border.

I hope this helps out.

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Erik ]</small>
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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Lazarus » Wed Oct 23, 2002 11:32 am

Good post Erik,
An excellent point. Etiquette is very important to the individual players. I just wanted to clear up the misconceptions that some people have about what they are allowed to do vs. what they can do. I suggest to everyone that they read the MAA charter. Whether you are a member or not, if you plan to play at MAA sanctioned events it is very important. While the MAA does not enforce their uniform dress codes on non-members, they do enforce their rules of play and safety. It is always best to be an informed player. :)

<small>[ October 23, 2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Lazarus ]</small>

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Re: Uniform Question

Post by OscarBird » Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:47 pm

Awwww, crap. My beret has the US Army blue shield with the stars around the border. Guess I can't use it after all :( :mad:

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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Scuzz » Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:59 pm

If you were willing, you could could take the flash off.

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Re: Uniform Question

Post by OscarBird » Wed Oct 23, 2002 6:43 pm

Maybe I'll just put some balck felt/cloth over it with electrical tape or something. Or just not wear it at all.

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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Lazarus » Thu Oct 31, 2002 12:39 pm

Is there any problem with wearing a name tape that just says "AIR FORCE" or "ARMY" without the U.S. designation as a prefix?
I'm considering organizing a team over the winter months though it is only in the Idea stage now and may never come about. The theme is for a secret special security force for the Airforce. Team name to be 51 VOODOO Squadron (51 a reference to Area 51). I would have patches and such made up for the team and members could choose to wear what ever American style BDU and equipment they choose. The only mandatory Items would be the team patches and a hockey helmet and elbow and knee pads (ala Blackhawk down) painted to match your uniforms camouflage pattern. If there is no problem with using "AIRFORCE" I'll do that, if there is a problem I could use VOODOO instead. I could use some help with Ideas for designing the team patch. I'm thinking a big 51 with VOODOO superimposed over it in smaller letters, I'm not sure what colors would work well. Any Ideas?

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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Erik » Thu Oct 31, 2002 12:46 pm

Interesting idea. The official titles of the services are, or course the " U.S. Air Force" and " U.S. Army."

I don't think that this would break the law or charter, if done. However, it could be kind of confusing to the casual observer.
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Re: Uniform Question

Post by THE ARCHANGEL » Thu Oct 31, 2002 12:49 pm

Due to what Erik already pointed out, I'd be more comfortable with you using VOODOO as your tape. Similar to what FORT Team has done....and I believe both Procat and SOF are looking into it as well.

You gonna put Doc Catlin on that team Laz?
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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Lazarus » Thu Oct 31, 2002 12:58 pm

Probably will, I've been trying to get him to go to some of the games for a while now but things just come up. I've got a few other people interested as well. It's a big commitment to organize something like this though and I'm not totally convinced I want to go to all the trouble. That's fine to just use "VOODOO" for the name tape. I was just asking for clarification, thanks. I'll announce the team on the boards here if it ever shapes up. :cool:

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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Rooster » Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:12 pm

Laz -

Any of these spark any interest?

Of course the colors can be different but it is good to figure out a design first then worry about color schemes. Let me know if you would like me to tweek any to your liking.

<img src="http://www.motoxsports.com/jhavens/51_voodoo.gif" alt=" - " />

<small>[ October 31, 2002, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Rooster ]</small>
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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Red Cell » Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:22 pm

Rooster those look cool.

That is some mean vehicle logo fixation you have there. :jk:
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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Lazarus » Thu Oct 31, 2002 3:40 pm

Hey Rooster, those are very cool! I like #3 the most but was wondering if you could square up the 51 to look more like the numbers on a football jersey? Also, maybe reverse the colors so the 51 is red and voodoo is white. If I decide to use one of your designs, how much will it cost me? I am an artist of another sort myself so I would feel like I owe you something for your creation. :D

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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Rooster » Thu Oct 31, 2002 3:42 pm

I'll give it a whirl and switch them around during lunch. As for cost - I'll PM ya.
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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Rooster » Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:17 pm

How about one of these?

<img src="http://www.motoxsports.com/jhavens/51_voodoo_v2.gif" alt=" - " />
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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Lazarus » Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:59 pm

The bottom one for sure. I'm picturing it on an olive drab background with a black border around the red 51 as well. What do I need to do to get this turned into a patch? Do I print out a copy of it and send it to the company or what? I don't remember if this has been explained before so if anyone can inform me I'd appreciate it. Very good work Rooster, Thanks for your time effort! :)

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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Rooster » Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:18 pm

Like this?

<img src="http://www.motoxsports.com/jhavens/51_voodoo_v3.gif" alt=" - " />
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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Lazarus » Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:27 pm

Bingo! Yeah, that with a black border around the outer edge of the patch. Perfect.

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Re: Uniform Question

Post by Rooster » Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:34 pm

one sec, I want to try something.
I flipped the V around to make it more visually pleasing. :D

<img src="http://www.motoxsports.com/jhavens/51_voodoo_v4.gif" alt=" - " />

<small>[ October 31, 2002, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Rooster ]</small>
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Post by Chadwick » Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:55 pm

kind of late but I want to dress up my bdu. According to this post I cant wear any patches per say a 101 PIR patch.
also wondering about where the soldiers wear their insignia patches, USA flag patch, rank(arm, not collar)
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Post by Digital » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:01 am

Unless you are actually serving, with in the MAA we do not allow rank patches to be worn. Read the chater to get more information on what is allowed and not allowed.
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Post by Risto » Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:22 am

Jon, what about ATAC rank patches? I was awarded a "specialist" pin on rank, I think ATAC uses the same rank system the Army does.

About unit patches, does the MAA still frown upon using real military insignia on "historical airsoft" uniforms? I'm thinking of things like the Vietnam US Army Grunt loadouts some FoRt members and I have, as well as Stuka's 101st Airborne loadout.
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Post by THE ARCHANGEL » Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:45 am

All around, the MAA discourages people from wearing patches....any patches....that a person has not earned. I admit that the rule mostly effects US Military, in that I personally find it offensive when someone wears ranking, or a SEAL Trident, or a Unit Patch, etc.....and they are not even old enough to serve. Or that they never served. I think it is an insult to the brave men and women who have and continue to serve their country, risking their lives every day.

That being said, we do allow, but still discourage, active and retired Military service men and women to wear what ever rank and badges they have earned. Why discourage? Frankly, the MAA....and Airsoft in general....is not the Military. And though we all try to emulate certain parts of that life in our games, kits, and play....I'd rather keep that fine line going.

As for MAA badges, Team ranks or badges, etc.....even if they are modeled after real Military awards and rankings....are allowed as they are NOT REAL MILITARY items. There is a slight difference, but a difference none the less.

As for real unit patches and or ranks for "historical" uniforms....I still find it distasteful....but have been out voted as far as "allowed". I know people like to build uniforms and kits of historical merit. Vietnam, WWI and II, etc. And right now it is allowed. Personally I don't understand how some one can think using current unit patches is an insult....but be okay with people wearing the same type from 30-50 years ago. It still seems wrong to me. But then again, I think it's disgusting that people would build Nazi kits for reenactments.

In the end....the Charter rules are for Members, and guidelines for others. If you are not a Member, and want to run around with a Seal patch or pin on your lapel. Go for it....but don't be surprised when a real soldier calls you on it and rips it off your uniform.

Again, in my mind....if you have not earned it....it is an insult to wear it. What gives you the right? The right to wear something that men and women have bled and died for. Who do you think you are? You think you're complimenting soldiers? By emulating them to a point where you where their ranks and ID's? You're doing nothing but belittling their service and sacrifice?.and making yourself feel cool. Of course?.that is my opinion. But as long as I have a say in this club?.and this community, I will always fight for that viewpoint.

Does that answer your question Chadwick?
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Post by Erik » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:40 pm

I am going to respectfully dissent with Gabe...at least in part.

First of all, on the subject of ATAC ranks - those were temporarily appointed for the Sanguine Past Campaign and are no longer relevant (the ATAC ranking program discontinued for lack of interest). If you earned an ATAC rank- and they were earned- you are certainly entitled to continue to wear it.

While we could have had rank insignia custom made at greater expense, ATAC used US Army rank pins out of convenience. This in no way diminishes the accomplishments of genuine soldiers. Rank design is essentially universal, and not unique to the Army.

On this issue of doing unit or soldier impressions - as long as the impression is authentic, I have no problem with that. You want the insignia to be accurate to your impression and team role (ie, don't go awarding yourself a command rank unless you are in command).

So if you are "re-enacting" that's okay with me, and most vets I know don't have a problem with it.

Having said that, there is some behavior I disagree with:

1. Simply slapping a patch on your uniform without any intention of creating an authentic uniform impression. If you are not "re-enacting" you are misusing the insignia.

2. Co-opting an exisiting insignia for the use of your own team. Again, this is okay if your team is re-enacting and the insignia fits your specific impression.

3. Pretending to be something you are not. If you are re-enacting, admit it. If anyone asks you if you are re-enacting, tell them the truth.
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Post by Wolfwood » Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:38 am

ATAC pins were also a far cry from completely emulating rank insignia. It was pretty clear looking at it that it was something not awarded from the military, so there was less of an issue. That said, as soon as Sanguine Past was done with I removed my insignia. If you want to wear it as a reminder of that game, I wouldn't think it was inappropriate.

Basically, I disagree strongly with wearing of rank on a BDU, for the reasons gabe mentioned. At the last SFP someone was wearing a BDU with a CSM rank on it, and I brought it up. I mentioned someone spent a good score of years attaining that rank, and it is a great achievment by itself. Not something to be donned because it looks cool. If teams, or individuals, want to do a rank structure, just use some creativity and come up with symbolism that does not emulate. Decide on your own how to signify ranks. Use stars, clovers, rainbows....any of the lucky charms!

As for the flag patch, I pesonally don't see a problem with that, as its a pretty generic patch. Its worn on the right arm, as the top-most patch (I believe the unit patch you saw combat with can go above it. But one would think your countries colors would be more important...) Right now the "backwards" flag is used to symbolize charging into combat. No one gave me a straight answer at McCoy though, is that only wartime that is used?
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Post by Sgt.Petro » Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:05 pm

The old reg for Army "Wear and Appearance" placed the shoulder sleeve insignia above the U.S. flag on the right shoulder (combat patch). With the new uniform comes changes. The U.S. Flag will now be placed above the unit insignia. Remember the blue field should always be forward as if the flag were flying into battle. If anyone is curious just google for AR 670-1

Also, as of last year all U.S. Army soldiers will wear the flag regardless of pending deployment or not.

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Post by Chadwick » Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:39 pm

i agree with eric on the re enacting, especialy if it is an educational role(ie museum/living museum or for movies) if there was no one who dressed as the nazis, VC, NVA, or japanese or the """bad guys""" there would be no point in re enacting, beacuse who would you be fighting as an allie, the brits?I also have to say that many of the nazis disliked the practiced ways, but did what they were told, following orders. they were not heartless killers like many people believe, at least not most of them.
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