Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

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Guges Mk3
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Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:45 am

Alright folks the much anticipated Airsoft motor Dyno is in my hands.

With offerings made to the Airsoft Goddess. I sacrificed an ICS as a test motor.

This device measures:

RPM, Amp Draw and CONS - Motor Efficiency (lower is better), this is an arbitrary number and is only for ballpark references. Other Arbitray factors is motor noise and heat after run.

I pinned the voltage at 9V, motors spin up to a 9V draw in various times and then I let it run for a 20 seconds straight.

Image

Motor 1 - Sacrificial Lamb

ICS Infinite - Long Type

RPM - 25400
Amp Draw - 2.12 Amps
CONS - 17
Noise - High, screetchy whiney motor
Heat - Very warm to the touch.

TM EG-3000HC (High Cycle)

RPM - 32800
Amp Draw - 2.92 Amps
CONS - 3.5
Noise - Low, it hummed with a slight pitch that reminded me of a dentist drill.
Heat - barely warm to the touch.

Result the Current King for Speed!

And now the motor you are waiting for....

G&P M170 Devil Jet

RPM - 0
Amp Draw - 18.7 AMPS
CONS - 0.0
Noise - None
Heat - None, slight vibration at 1.4V @ 17amps like the motor was trying to spin up.

Results - DOA like a cheap ACM motor. Note: It was very hard to turn even by hand. Magnet was really powerful, like Angelina Jolie to Brad Pitt on the set of Mr. and Mrs. Smith. When 4" away it latched onto the EG3000 like...well AJ on BP....

I will be contacting my distributor about the bad G&P M170.

Test with replacement motor!
G&P M170 Devil Jet
RPM - 34000
Amp Draw - 4.7 AMPS
CONS - 50.0 (Holy Moly!)
Noise - High, shrieky high pitch
Heat - Moderate, was getting warm to the touch quickly.

Results - When I first powered up the motor nothing happened, as the voltage ticked up and the amps increased I thought I had another DOA motor. Then the motor kicked in and started spinning up. It was shrieky like the ICS motor, slight high frequency vibration when topped out at 9.0V. A motor at the edge and holding together, no refinement, how long it will last...that will have to be seen.

Eagle Force EF1300 - Long Type

RPM - 27500
Amp Draw - 1.55 AMPS
CONS - 7.5
Noise - Mild, a louder harsher dentist drill type noise.
Heat - Mild, warm to the touch
Result - A great motor, very efficient due to it being hand assembled, but is it worth the price around $85.00. Good motor to reference the TM EG3000HC.

Ares/Shooter, Super Torque - Long Type

RPM - 26100
Amp Draw - 3.61 AMPS
CONS - 25
Noise - Mild, but of a different pitch, more of a thump type of pitch.
Heat - Mild, warm to the touch
Result - A definitely a super torque class motor. Magnet was very strong, hard to turn by hand, could be a cousin to the G&P M170...but this one works out of the box and at a lower cost over the G&P.

JG "Black, no label" - Long Type

RPM - 25700
Amp Draw - 2.72 AMPS
CONS - 9
Noise - Medium, a bit schreeky
Heat - Mild, not warm at all
Result - A fairly efficient motor, that is not as high pitched as other motors.

Chaoli "Mirco" Motor - Long Type

RPM - 21300
Amp Draw - 2.27 AMPS
CONS - 2
Noise - Medium, a not annoying at all
Heat - Mild, not warm at all
Result - Another surprising motor, being fairly low RPM it is quiet.

Classic Army Blue Label High Torque/Performance - Long Motor

RPM - 29300
Amp Draw - 3.39 AMPS
CONS - 23
Noise - Loud, high pitch, whiney motor
Heat - Medium, was arming up quickly.
Result - A high strung stock motor that is poorly refined.

Classic Army Red Label High Torque/Performance - Long Motor

RPM - 29400
Amp Draw - 4.75 AMPS
CONS - 6.5
Noise - Medium, high pitched
Heat - Mild, warming up, but not as bad as the blue label motor.
Result - The refined sibling to the CA Blue Motor.

Eagle Force 1100L

Volts accepted - 9.00
RPM - 25800
Amp Draw - 1.49 AMPS
CONS - 9.5
Noise - Low Noise
Heat - Negligible heat
Result - Mid-range motor and very efficient

Element Max Sped Motor

Max Volts accepted - 8.47V
RPM - 33400
Amp Draw - 4.19 AMPS
CONS - 31
Noise - Medium, high pitched
Heat - High, Got warm to the touch rather quickly.
Result - A very inefficient motor, it took over 9 amps and 1V to turn it over, not an efficient motor to run in a HS set-up, because this motor is going to suck the power and cut into your ROF. This motor is more of a Torque motor geared for speed.

KWA "Pro" Long Type

Max Volts accepted - 9.0V
RPM - 28,800
Amp Draw - 2.26 AMPS
CONS - 11
Noise - Medium pitched
Heat - Low
Result - A nice motor with performance levels above the EF1100,
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

Don't fear the gun...fear the one that's wielding it!

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by McLovin » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:59 am

As I grow more into airsoft I feel that I learn more too, the exception is motors.
I feel like I dont know a whole lot about them and maybe you could clear up a few misconseptions I might have.

What is the difference between a high torque (normal, high, super, ultra), high speed, turbo, energy and magnum motors.
My guess is that "in the name" a torque motor will put more stress or power on the gears, a speed motor will spin the pinion gear faster. IDK about the others

Which would you perfer on a V2 gearbox? for outdoor scrimaging.

On a side note, Could you test a Systema Magnum Motor or any Systema motor, being ppl think systema is the best which in my eyes isn't. I would like to see it compare against the other motors.

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by IsparkTheLa » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:31 am

McLovin wrote:As I grow more into airsoft I feel that I learn more too, the exception is motors.
I feel like I dont know a whole lot about them
On a side note, Could you test a Systema Magnum Motor or any Systema motor, being ppl think systema is the best which in my eyes isn't.
Say what?

Good info Guges!
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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by Guges Mk3 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:07 am

I will be modding one of my G3 grips to allow live under load dyno'ing. Then with the quick spring swap ability of my modded gearbox, I can test it at various spring tensions.

Image

@McLovin

There are no standards for what is a torque, high speed turbo or Super Bunny Motor

You can kinda tell by the Magnets. High Torque motors have stronger magnets, high speed motors have weaker magnets. You take a HT motor and turn it in your hands you can feel the clunk, clunk of the motr shaft turning. Conversely if you take a HS motor...you won't feel the clunk, clunk.

As for what is what...this is airsoft. There is no standard.
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

Don't fear the gun...fear the one that's wielding it!

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by Trippy » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:51 pm

Guges Mk3 wrote:There are no standards for what is a torque, high speed turbo or Super Bunny Motor
Super Bunny makes motors now?

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by Guges Mk3 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:18 pm

No...Super Bunny is pirating DVD's.
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

Don't fear the gun...fear the one that's wielding it!

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by Tank » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:06 pm

And cats....Or maybe that's his dinner & he's about to cook it with the heat rays that he's, clearly, about to shoot out of his eyes.
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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by Bunny » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:27 pm

Wow ... how old is that photo?

Nice photoshopping. :P

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by Guges Mk3 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:37 pm

Updated with 4 more motors!
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

Don't fear the gun...fear the one that's wielding it!

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by mau5 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:21 am

Sorry, this might sound stupid, but... wouldn't amp draw be a factor in the cons? I'm probably not understanding amp draw right, but it seems like it would play into the outcome of the cons

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by Guges Mk3 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:07 pm

CONS is more about motor efficiency. I.E. Arcing inside the motor. More arcing less efficient, though amps has an effect in this...
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by mau5 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:01 pm

yeah. I mean like... wouldn't a motor be less efficient if it has a higher amp draw? Wouldn't that be using more power or am I thinking wrong?

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by Trippy » Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:17 pm

A motor draw high amperage and still be efficient, if it is a high-output motor. I would more consider it to be inefficient if it had a high IR.
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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by Guges Mk3 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:38 pm

Draw is its ability to do "work". If it cannot draw power...it can't do work.

But if a motor is inefficient it can draw a lot of power to do the same amount of work.
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

Don't fear the gun...fear the one that's wielding it!

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by mau5 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:36 pm

Yeah. I was just concerned about the TM motor's amp draw versus the ICS amp draw. I mean obviously by looking at the other amp draws you can see that 2.1 to 2.9 isn't a big deal at all, but if the TM motor had say an amp draw of 5 but the same RPM, it would be much less efficient, right? Sorry to be annoying you with this, I just don't want to get the wrong idea about amp draw.

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by Guges Mk3 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:26 pm

Right.

The TM has also 7000 More RPMS and its much quieter and smoother...big difference.
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by Guges Mk3 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:08 am

Updated - 3/11/2011
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

Don't fear the gun...fear the one that's wielding it!

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by egus » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:57 pm

This thread spurred me to try and apply some deeper analysis and
share some results and get your feedback.

Preface: Ok, I'm an Airsoft greenhorn. But here is my application
of some core concepts I use at work (and tools) towards examining
and dissecting the operation of an AEG.

I decided I wanted to measure current draw on a live fire AEG. So I
brought home my portable oscilloscope and a high precision low amp
current probe to check out some real-world amp draw and waveforms.

The inductive current probe is clamped around the positive wire at the
battery, there is therefore no series resistance or disturbance of the
electrical circuit in the gun. The original waveform is captured in microseconds
and I zoom out to milliseconds for better views/analysis.
Only thing I will do differently from now on is set a channel on battery voltage so
that can be graphed along with amps.

At the time, I only own two guns, so here's a King Arms Thompson M1A1.
A full auto burst with a topped off 8.4v Nmhd battery.

Teaser:
Image

Here is the initial trigger pull and several shots:
Image

Notes:
* 1st these motors are noisy. (electrically), when I used to build R/C car motors you work
really hard to smooth this out. (but no radio receivers to worry about in AEG.)
* AEG's draw A LOT of power on initial trigger contact when motor is stopped, as you can see
by the right hand side scale, initial current draw is ~36 amps to get the motor spinning.
Sidenote: average current draw during automatic fire is about 15-16 amps.
(this is due to the motor driving the bevel-spur-sector-bolt, and the mechanical resistance
of those parts)

* hard to see in my poor screenshot captures, but delta time peak-to-peak
is 85.74mS, that is repeated throughout the waveform capture provided a bit of fudging
on the cursor positions (will save that for another discussion), that is the time between
shots. (actually cycles of the bolt, as the bolt cycling is the effect on motor draw current.)
With a little math 1000/84.74ms= 11.8 * 60 = 708 rounds per minute.
(cursor placement peak-to-peak accuracy can be elaborated on some other time.)

All these values will vary by gun, motor, etc... even of same manufacturer.

Finally a bit of OVER analysis... this bit of tech I use when analysis automotive DC Fuel pump failures
or pending failures...
Image

That was a zoomed in shot of part of the firing waveform, from it I can determine that this particular
DC Brushed motor has 6 commutator segments... and without going into any more detail and boring
math, with that info and the timebase of the waveform, I can determine at what rpm the motor is
turning at any given point based on its current flow.

... all in the gun, while its firing. So you have your gears to tight, it will show, you have bad brushes,
weak brush springs, burned commutator, easy to see...

Practical use? no idea, cool use of incredibly expensive tech that I should be using at work to make a living... priceless.

Comments appreciated.
-egus

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Re: Motor Specs - RPM, Amp Draw, CONS

Post by Guges Mk3 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:23 am

Hi Egus,

I was developing a crud system to do what you did with with very nice equipment.

I was actually setting up a mechbox with swap able springs to give different runs and motor performance. But the Dyno I had peaked at 20 amps and would shut down. A M100 with certain motors would peak at that level quickly at start up and shut down the whole experiment.
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

Don't fear the gun...fear the one that's wielding it!

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