Dual sector gears?

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Ghillie
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Dual sector gears?

Post by Ghillie » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:49 pm

I guess I'm just a bit lost as to a few things,

First, does anyone have any experience with DSGs? If so please state which ones.

I guess I'm a bit confused as to the concept, I get the high speed set ups as putting more teeth on the sector gear means less time to engage the piston per revolution of the gear, but is the difference noticeable?

Does this lead to more wear on the piston?

Please excuse me for all my questions, I guess I'm quite intrigued :)

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Guges Mk3
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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by Guges Mk3 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:49 pm

You have to short stroke the piston and your not going to get high fps.
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CLEDUS
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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by CLEDUS » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:53 pm

Ghillie wrote: I get the high speed set ups as putting more teeth on the sector gear means less time to engage the piston per revolution of the gear, but is the difference noticeable?

Does this lead to more wear on the piston?
Well, there are more teeth on the sector gear, but NOT at the same time. Essentially, a dual sector gear is 2 full sets of teeth. Though they are 2 smaller sets, fewer teeth, which means that the piston needs to match the number of teeth on one side of the sector gear (Short stroke). This also means that the piston won't be pulled back as far, thus lowering FPS. Anyway, the piston is pulled back TWICE for each single revolution of the sector gear.

It basically doubles the ROF but decreases the overall FPS. Anytime you crank up the ROF, you are directly creating more wear and tear on the entire system.

A double sector gear setup is a great way to burn through a bag of BB's. Personally, I would rather improve my accuracy, range, and battery capacity before installing a dual sector gear system. The only reason I have been considering one of these upgrades is the challenge itself. It is a complicated build.

Hope this helps! Good Luck!

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SeawolfIV
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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by SeawolfIV » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:51 pm

Also, don't think that high rof= high speed motor+m90 spring.

You want some torque (neo magnet motor with relatively high twists per armature [TPA]=trigger response) and low ratio gears (fewer pinion rotations per cycle) with a strong spring (return piston faster, avoids pre engagement as well) and a strong lipo to power it all. Needs a good mosfet to boot.

Wear, however, isn't doubled. A single sector gear setup at 30 rps would have more wear than a 45 rps DSG setup, because everything in a single sector setup has to work longer to cycle than in a DSG.

And I have no direct experience, however it is easy to grasp conceptually, especially with a community of dedicated techs.
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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by Miker » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:44 pm

DSG is inefficient and somewhat useless.


For fun? Yeah I guess it is cool, but you will gain no real "tactical" advantage and it is going to cost you a fair amount of money.

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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by Guges Mk3 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:22 am

SeawolfIV wrote:Also, don't think that high rof= high speed motor+m90 spring.

Wear, however, isn't doubled. A single sector gear setup at 30 rps would have more wear than a 45 rps DSG setup, because everything in a single sector setup has to work longer to cycle than in a DSG.
I have to disagree...a stroke is a stroke. 30 strokes on the piston or 45. The 45 is "more" wear. Granted the DSG is "shorter", but the stroke is harder. The wear is there on the pinion, piston teeth, mechbox head.

Thing is, if your putting out enough pressure to expel a bb at 350fps, the force to expel that bb is the same. Regardless if it's full or short stroke. However with 15 more impacts like in the example above....it is more wear.

Besides...if you can't hit a target with 30bps...your not going to hit a target with 45bps.
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by CLEDUS » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:16 pm

Guges Mk3 wrote:Besides...if you can't hit a target with 30bps...your not going to hit a target with 45bps.
...or 20 bps. Don't get me wrong, high ROF is kinda fun. But, you aren't going to get any more kills with it than any other setup. It DOES however scare the crap out of those on the receiving end.

Brings me back to the first time I played with people at the Facility. Especially those who hadn't encountered and 11.1V lipo...

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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by SeawolfIV » Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:10 pm

Oh yeah, I know. I wanna do a HS build, but don't wanna lay down that kinda cash.
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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by Guges Mk3 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:29 am

What?

DSG, M150+...dremel teeth off a piston - 40.00

DSG, M150+, Short Stroke Piston - 65.00

If you cheap...you can get away with home made spacers and a dremel. So that leaves you with a DSG - 20.00
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

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ilovethissport
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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by ilovethissport » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:33 pm

Guges Mk3 wrote: DSG - 20.00
Where can you get a DSG for $20.00?
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neoM4tech
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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by neoM4tech » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:16 pm

1 minute of googling i found a modify dsg for 27... still, not that expensive. search double sector gear.

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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by SeawolfIV » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:22 pm

I've heard bad things about the Modify DSG. Although the Riot SC DSG is only $55 if bought alone, new.

*Edit* those bad things did come from Riot SC's community, where certain vendors and manufacturers have a cult of personality (maybe ASM, maybe not, to be ambiguous).

But I mainly don't want to put any more money into AEGs for now, as I have an infatuation with Escort/Daytona and Asahi systems right now.

But I digress...
Last edited by SeawolfIV on Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CLEDUS
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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by CLEDUS » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:31 pm

Talk to Guges. He can most certainly get them cheaper.

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Guges Mk3
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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by Guges Mk3 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:25 am

I have yet to find "concrete" proof that the Modify DSG has some sort of "functional" issue.
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

Don't fear the gun...fear the one that's wielding it!

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IsparkTheLa
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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by IsparkTheLa » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:12 am

I use Siegetek DSG's, here is mine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-DbASZRQew It was fun to build. Do I play with 50rps? No. But from playing at the Facility where your targets are sprinting over short distances to cover, statistical probability says your chances of hitting your target are greater with more bb's.

DSG's eat up springs. I have gone through two. When I replaced the spring, everything else in the gearbox looked fine.

Modify has some shady business ethics....or lack there of, and I try my best not to support them. I know the industry itself is one big game of copycat, but Modify made some rather ballsy attempts to blatantly plagiarize Siegetek products.

Here is a good dual sector gear animation to better understand the concept. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4Qxh_gZLq0
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Guges Mk3
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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:23 pm

Isn't that the whole Airsoft Industry? Copy each other where you can and get away with it?
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

Don't fear the gun...fear the one that's wielding it!

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IsparkTheLa
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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by IsparkTheLa » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:29 pm

IsparkTheLa wrote: I know the industry itself is one big game of copycat
Today's problems cannot be solved if we still think the way we thought when we created them.

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Ghillie
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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by Ghillie » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:01 pm

Guges Mk3 wrote:You have to short stroke the piston and your not going to get high fps.
Oh I understand it's not a simple swap and get some godly beast, My post was pure curiosity. As for Fps, I understand it would be sub 300 at ~45 rps or so, but that's what comes with high speed set ups.

Not sure who posted about high torque over high speed, But In what instance then would a high speed motor be favorable if high torque is better in high speed set ups?

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Re: Dual sector gears?

Post by Guges Mk3 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:48 am

It like a car or a tractor or any vehicle with a transmission.

It's about the ratios and the motor speed, plus available power.

HT Motor + HS Gears = Pull a Heavy Spring Quickly.

HS Motor + HT Gears = Pull a Heavy Spring Quickly.

HT Motor + HT Gears = Pull a heavy spring slowly even with low power.

HS Motor + HS Gears = Pull a heavy spring slowly.

Add in additional factors like voltage and everything changes...

Its all a system and you have to understand how it all works together...
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

Don't fear the gun...fear the one that's wielding it!

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