EYE PROTECTION

Discuss Safety issues and possible training ideas.

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Erik » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:40 pm

Daytonairsofter wrote:So if the goggles description says ASTM approved, i can use them
That's not correct. The standard you need to meet is ANSI Z.87-1.
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Tank » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:18 pm

Daytonairsofter wrote:So if the goggles description says ASTM approved, i can use them, this whole mask choosing is quite confusing :)

No. "ASTM approved" doesn't mean shit. In fact most of the ASTM's recommendations are exactly that, shit.
ASTM has no power, legal or otherwise. They are simpley a panel of poorly informed people who make recommendations about what certain "standards" should be in various industries. I should also note that most of the people on the ASTM panels are people who for for companies in the various industries they try to "regulate". For airsoft, it's companies like Crossman, Cybergun, Brass Eagle, etc, etc. They sit around and argue about what safety standards should be. They have ZERO legal power, they just make recommendations that manufacturers can choose weather or not they want to follow.

How do I know these things? Because I've had the misfortune of sitting in on ASTM meetings (via conference call).

Here's one of the ASTM's brilliant ideas....ASTM recommends that there be a 1 joule limit on all airsoft guns imported into the US. They also recommend that the maximum velocity for airsoft gun being fielded be 400 FPS.
So what they're essentially saying is..."It ok to PLAY airsoft at up to 400 FPS, but it's not ok to import guns that shoot over 328 FPS."
How the hell does that make any sense?
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Stealth_Recon » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:24 pm

Tank, I hope you're not stating that all ASTM panels are comprised of uninformed people. I am a member of ASTM and have been involved in panels and standards development. Maybe in your experience with the panels and standards you have been involved with, but I doubt you can speak to all of what ASTM does. I am not doubting your experiences, I'm just not comfortable with your blanket statements of the entire organization and their mission.
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Bunny » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:16 pm

Erik wrote:
Daytonairsofter wrote:So if the goggles description says ASTM approved, i can use them
That's not correct. The standard you need to meet is ANSI Z.87-1.
What kind of goggles are you looking at that use ASTM standards? Are they non-US? Do the goggles even state which ASTM standard they meet?

Although I don't quite share Tank's pessimism towards ASTM he does have a point that in the US they do not serve as a national and enforced set of standards; that role is filled by ANSI, who's standards are legally enforced by OSHA.
Daytonairsofter wrote:this whole mask choosing is quite confusing :)
It really shouldn't be. Any quality US goggle maker is going to make their goggles to ANSI standards, get a decent brand and you will have no trouble. YES, this means you'll need to spend as much as $80 :shock: Chinese clone guns and tactical gear are constantly gaining popularity and certainty have their place - but when you're talking about eye protection, where the cost of failure is getting your eye shot out - do you really want to go cheap?

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Meith.Killer » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:14 pm

If you search around on Ebay you can find ESS or Flakjak goggles for pretty cheap, about $30
Whats the scouter say? HIS FPS IS OVER 9000!!!!!!!
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Tank » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:30 am

Stealth_Recon wrote:Tank, I hope you're not stating that all ASTM panels are comprised of uninformed people. I am a member of ASTM and have been involved in panels and standards development. Maybe in your experience with the panels and standards you have been involved with, but I doubt you can speak to all of what ASTM does. I am not doubting your experiences, I'm just not comfortable with your blanket statements of the entire organization and their mission.

I'm sure not ALL of them are, but those I've had the "pleasure" of dealing with were largely staffed with people who are poorly informed (although I'm sure they would argue otherwise).
In reality were just trying to get the ASTM to do what suited THEIR interests over the "greater good". My dealings with ASTM panels were like listening to a group of 8 year old kids argue.
They were, at one point, arguing over what to call airsoft...Because apparently someone thought it should be called something else, despite the fact that airsoft already HAS a name. :roll:

I apologize if you took offense to my statement.
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Daytonairsofter » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:11 pm

i really dont want to spend 80 dollars on a mask, since im under 18 i need full face protection, which i think is a tad lame, haha. i understand the reason why though. if anyone can recommend a decently priced full face mask id appreciate it! thanks, kevin.

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Daytonairsofter » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:20 pm


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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Tank » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:41 pm

Daytonairsofter wrote:hows this you guys? any good? http://www.airsoftpost.com/product_info ... s_id=25515 :?

That would be fine.
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Daytonairsofter » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:07 pm

thanks tank. just so you know it took some restraint to not say tanks. hahaha im lame :D :(

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Bunny » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:47 pm

Daytonairsofter wrote:i really dont want to spend 80 dollars on a mask
Daytonairsofter wrote:airsoft is not a poor man's sport.
Those two statement seem to be somewhat contradictory ...

Anyway, for full face combos I have seen the best quality and value out of JT and Scott masks.

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Stealth_Recon » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:19 pm

Tank, no offense taken. Just wanted people to know that ASTM is not like that in all sectors. Your experience is much different than mine. I have been involved in the environmental portion of ASTM where standards have been developed in Environmental Site Assessment (also know as Phase I Contaminant Surveys). Very well written standards that are the "Bible" in the field. No idiots there. Too bad your experience was with the 8th graders. Airsoft = ah those air shooting toy thingies. :lol:
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Daytonairsofter » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:36 pm

lol bunny.
never said i had a lot of money.
being 16 and jobless, but i work hard for my stuff, but masks are not worth 80 dollars, not even the army of two masks.
agreed?

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Daytonairsofter » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:36 pm

lol bunny.
never said i had a lot of money.
being 16 and jobless, but i work hard for my stuff, but masks are not worth 80 dollars, not even the army of two masks.
agreed?

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Stealth_Recon » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:40 pm

If a mask saves your eyes from serious injury and/or loss of sight, they are worth 100 times that amount.
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Daytonairsofter » Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:46 pm

25 dollar mask > 80 dollar mask :mrgreen:

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Bunny » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:53 pm

Daytonairsofter wrote:25 dollar mask > 80 dollar mask :mrgreen:
So long as it adequately protects your eyes, I'm happy.

The cheaper masks tend to be less comfortable, well fitting, and will fog easier though - so in the end you may be less happy with them. I understand the desire not to spend an outlandish amount of money on something not as "cool" as a gun or gear but really: if you can't properly protect your eyes you can't play at all. If you can't see well, you won't enjoy your time playing very much. I bought my first pair of ESS goggles after my very first MAA open session, and now quite a few years, scratches, and blood stains later I still use the very same pair.

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by McLovin » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:42 am

Just buy cheaper ones.. some of the best goggles are the cheapest.. u just have to search for them

IF your 18 or over like me or bunny JUST BUY Flakjak goggles or flakjak v2 googles

the v2's will run for about $60+
but the flakjaks on either evike or airsoftgi will cost u a maximum of $25 Which in my opinion is the best deal you ccan get

They do fog a bit but all googles do after an endless run in the woods or what not u just have to remember to vent them periodically.

I use the very same pair and im So satisfied. Thanks to bunny for getting it through my thick head (in page one). Listen to him
Last edited by McLovin on Sat May 22, 2010 3:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by McLovin » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:43 am

*please delete* double post
Last edited by McLovin on Sat May 22, 2010 3:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Daytonairsofter » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:18 pm

im under 18. so i would spend money on goggles, but im required to have a face mask for playing, no biggie, i have a g36 so if i have to look down the sights i can just fold the stock and BOOM, viewable!

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by McLovin » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:16 pm

WELL there you go! your pretty optamistic

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Daytonairsofter » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:35 pm

im always optimistic, wj[nasmpnmsd yay

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Fatal » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:42 pm

I would not buy Flakjacks personally, I have seen a BB slip through them and hit the user in the eye. He did goto the hospital, look for some ESS Profile NVG's they are about the same as the flakjacks in price check ebay? Also have proven themselves in a real war zone.
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by McLovin » Sat May 22, 2010 3:28 pm

haha ye
i actually upgraded from flakjaks to ESS Profile.

On Ebay they can run anywhere from $20 (used)-$100 (new)

but you can buy them pretty cheap at places like http://www.chiefsupply.com/Law_Enforcem ... ction/EP01
for $82 plus shipping

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Gill » Mon May 24, 2010 8:29 pm

I've heard a lot of good reviews from people who own Bolle T-800's and I am considering picking some up for my self.

http://www.botachtactical.com/bolt8gog.html

As for right now, I have the Scott Full Facemask off of ASGI. It works for what it is but they're kind of big and I'd like something smaller like the T-800's

http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.p ... ts_id=3136
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by WarGod » Wed May 26, 2010 10:23 am

McLovin wrote: They do fog a bit but all googles do after an endless run in the woods or what not u just have to remember to vent them periodically.
How do you propose venting them in the field? In most games/fields I have played at lifting your goggles, even to vent them, is a huge "no-no". I have seen some people drill a bunch of small holes into their goggles around the perimeter of the lense though, that might help if you are having fogging issues.
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Shady-Cadence » Wed May 26, 2010 12:05 pm

Drilling holes in the lenses INVALIDATES the ANSI rating of said lenses. DON'T do it.
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Bunny » Wed May 26, 2010 5:21 pm

Shady-Cadence wrote:Drilling holes in the lenses INVALIDATES the ANSI rating of said lenses. DON'T do it.
Very true. To add to what Shady already said: modifying your lenses in any way will nullify their rating. The goggle will no longer meet ANSI specifications and therefor be unsuitable for use at an MAA game.

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by WarGod » Wed May 26, 2010 8:00 pm

That would explain why the last time I was at an MAA open game there was a kid playing with a pair of flak jackets with holes punched through the entire lense perimeter......... :roll:

My reccomendation is just spend the money on a higher grade goggle.
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Shady-Cadence » Thu May 27, 2010 6:26 am

WarGod wrote:That would explain why the last time I was at an MAA open game there was a kid playing with a pair of flak jackets with holes punched through the entire lense perimeter......... :roll:
That wouldn't be one of the kids that was forced to get a mask from SFP or leave the game because of it, would it? :roll: If you saw it at an MAA event, it's because we didn't. So, regardless of what anyone has seen, the MAA does not allow any lens modifications whatsoever!

Clear enough?
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by WarGod » Thu May 27, 2010 1:38 pm

Shady-Cadence wrote:
WarGod wrote:That would explain why the last time I was at an MAA open game there was a kid playing with a pair of flak jackets with holes punched through the entire lense perimeter......... :roll:
That wouldn't be one of the kids that was forced to get a mask from SFP or leave the game because of it, would it? :roll: If you saw it at an MAA event, it's because we didn't. So, regardless of what anyone has seen, the MAA does not allow any lens modifications whatsoever!

Clear enough?
No, it wouldn't have been him. He played the entire time and even talked with "OC's" numerous times I could see and still had them on at the end of the day. " :roll: "

I don't understand why you think you need to clarify anything to me? Do I have holes in my goggles? No. I'm a big boy, I follow and abide by proper safety precautions....so I don't understand why you think you need to "dad" me or "teach" me anything. I didn't tell Mclovin TO drill holes in his mask, I didn't even say I ENDORSE doing it...as a matter of fact I even said to buy a higher grade goggle. I said I have seen people do it at NUMEROUS games in the Midwest, INCLUDING one who had played at MAA games where, according to you it is "not allowed whatsoever!" :roll:


Anyway....
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Trippy » Thu May 27, 2010 2:15 pm

WarGod wrote:
McLovin wrote: I have seen some people drill a bunch of small holes into their goggles around the perimeter of the lense though, that might help if you are having fogging issues.
That sure seems like you are suggesting it to me.

Several people were caught with modified lenses at the May open session and made to get new masks. A fairly big fuss was made about the whole thing, showing that the MAA does not allow lens modification. We don't have the time and resources to inspect every single players full line of gear at every single game. When it comes down to it, playing with unsafe goggles isn't a bad idea because it is against MAA rules. It is a bad idea because it is stupid. If a lens breaks, you can go blind. Its as simple as that. Even bringing up the suggestion of drilling holes to prevent fogging will increase the likelihood of others doing it, even if you claim that you aren't "endorsing" it.
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by THE ARCHANGEL » Thu May 27, 2010 2:44 pm

Oh for Christ's sake....

If it happened before it will not happen anymore....and responsible players who see it even if refs and organizers don't should alert the player as well the refs and organizers so it can be prevented.

Can we stop measuring dicks on behalf of safety? If not, then because I said so....
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Daishido » Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:06 pm

THE ARCHANGEL wrote:Oh for Christ's sake....

If it happened before it will not happen anymore....and responsible players who see it even if refs and organizers don't should alert the player as well the refs and organizers so it can be prevented.

Can we stop measuring dicks on behalf of safety? If not, then because I said so....
Right, ARCHANGEL. I totally agree with you on this one... i have a bumper sticker that ill be bringing with that shows 'my opinion' lol... Modified goggles is dangerous to those who wear them... If you even think it could get you in trouble, DONT DO IT...
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Macho man3p0 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:59 pm

What about a full face mask could you drll more holes around the lower half of the face mask?
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by thetaco » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:59 pm

Any home modification of your protective eyewear ot goggles will result in them being rejected by the game organizers. Besides, why would you do something to your mask that would potentially put your eyes in jeopardy?
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by McLovin » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:05 am

Trippy wrote:
WarGod wrote:
McLovin wrote: I have seen some people drill a bunch of small holes into their goggles around the perimeter of the lense though, that might help if you are having fogging issues.
since when did i say this?

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Macho man3p0 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:25 pm

I just thought if you were to drill holes around the lower half of the paintball mask it could help the fogging problem still but it's not worth an eye. you just need to learn how to breath "down".
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Bunny » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:10 am

The MAA does not allow the use of modified facemasks by people under 18. This is for liability and insurance reasons for the MAA.

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Daytonairsofter » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:05 am

hey everyone, now i tried searching for this question already, but i couldnt find the answer, and i may be asking in the wrong area, but you guys can yell at me if you really want to. do you guys allow ironmask masks along with the approved goggles if i am under 18? it seems like it should be, but i thought i should ask anyway. thanks

http://www.airsoftpost.com/product_info ... s_id=32187

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Gill » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:30 am

Daytonairsofter wrote:hey everyone, now i tried searching for this question already, but i couldnt find the answer, and i may be asking in the wrong area, but you guys can yell at me if you really want to. do you guys allow ironmask masks along with the approved goggles if i am under 18? it seems like it should be, but i thought i should ask anyway. thanks

http://www.airsoftpost.com/product_info ... s_id=32187
First thread in the "Safety & Training" section of the boards.

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=27949
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by bikemancs » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:26 am

Daytonairsofter wrote:hey everyone, now i tried searching for this question already, but i couldnt find the answer, and i may be asking in the wrong area, but you guys can yell at me if you really want to. do you guys allow ironmask masks along with the approved goggles if i am under 18? it seems like it should be, but i thought i should ask anyway. thanks

http://www.airsoftpost.com/product_info ... s_id=32187
95% sure that is a no-go.

IIRC, the rule is: Under 18= unmodified full face paintball mask.

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Daytonairsofter » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:06 pm

okay, but that 5 percent will bug me, haha

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by THE ARCHANGEL » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:38 pm

Daytonairsofter wrote:hey everyone, now i tried searching for this question already, but i couldnt find the answer, and i may be asking in the wrong area, but you guys can yell at me if you really want to. do you guys allow ironmask masks along with the approved goggles if i am under 18? it seems like it should be, but i thought i should ask anyway. thanks

http://www.airsoftpost.com/product_info ... s_id=32187
I assume you mean Iron Man masks....and if so, then no. Though they are cool they are not meant to protect and the face and therefore are not the intended use. Over 18, for CQB, I would still say no for the same reason.
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Gill » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:51 pm

THE ARCHANGEL wrote:
Daytonairsofter wrote:hey everyone, now i tried searching for this question already, but i couldnt find the answer, and i may be asking in the wrong area, but you guys can yell at me if you really want to. do you guys allow ironmask masks along with the approved goggles if i am under 18? it seems like it should be, but i thought i should ask anyway. thanks

http://www.airsoftpost.com/product_info ... s_id=32187
I assume you mean Iron Man masks....and if so, then no. Though they are cool they are not meant to protect and the face and therefore are not the intended use. Over 18, for CQB, I would still say no for the same reason.
Actually if you follow the link, he actually means the "Iron Face" brand face mask on Evike.com. In my opinion, it doesn't look like it has adequate facial coverage, and it looks as though there could be gaps in between goggles and this face mask where BBs could get through.
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by THE ARCHANGEL » Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:18 pm

Thanks for the clarification Gill I hadn't checked the link.

The answer is still no. Our games require Full Face Paintball Masks for players under 18. No alternative will do. That said, we are reviewing several systems to see if they meet insurance specifications but to be blunt, don't hold your breath. Paintball masks are safer and we're in no rush to change our rules so people can look cooler and feel more tactical.
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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Daytonairsofter » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:29 am

im not in this to look cool or more tactical, trust me, i may be a "newbie" on here, but ive been playing for nearly 4 years, safety is a MUST for me. though i dont use my full face mask outside of MAA games. But it sucks how i cant use my iron sights, and i was thinking the iron mask brand would help keep me literally cooler, as in not hot, as well as maybe reduce the fogging, and reduce the need to trace bbs to see where they are going. yes i am taking into consideration the option of getting a rail riser, and a high profile red dot sight to help me, but i swear to the airsoft god, my first match after my 18th, WILL BE THE BEST FRIGGIN MATCH EVER!!!!! im not arguing, but i didnt want people thinking i was trying to be cool, since airsoft is definitely not a sport the jocks play...

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Bunny » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:36 am

In my mind the primary safety concern with the Iron Face masks is that they do not cover your ears at all. Proper full-face protection must cover every vulnerable orifice in your head - mouth, nose, and ears. And trust me, getting shot in the ear sucks.

As for the heat/fogging issue, the Iron Face masks sit much closer to your face than a normal paintball mask and while they do have ventilation holes most paintball masks I have seen have at least as many, and frequently more, ventilation holes. It seems to me that these masks would actually have poorer ventilation than a paintball mask, making me think that Evike's "Great air ventilation" claim is BS.

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by Daytonairsofter » Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:52 pm

Evike in general is mostly BS, and i liked how you used the word orifice....WIN

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Re: EYE PROTECTION

Post by goldenacorn93 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:35 pm

Just a quick one, would this be allowed? http://www.buy.com/prod/jt-usa-delta-fa ... 07888.html

It's JT, it's full-face, it covers your ears, and it's rated Z87.1, so I don't see why not...I just wanna check though, to be sure.
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