A few Questions...

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A few Questions...

Post by 81stleader » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:26 pm

This is my first post, so I want to start by saying that I am new to this whole experience.
I have friends and we plan on playing with paint rounds.
We have a huge snow pile in a parking lot of an abandoned clinic in Virginia, MN.

Now I know that it is within city limits, and I want to know all rules regarding urban combat play.
Also I am starting my own team, and I need to train, due to the fact that the opposing team is headed by an ex-spec ops soldier.
Any suggestions?

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Erik » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:12 pm

What you are talking about doing is not legal in Virgina.

City Code 10.10 Subd. 3:
Discharge of Firearms and Explosives. It is unlawful for any person to fire or discharge any cannon, gun, pistol or other firearm, firecracker, sky rocket or other fireworks, air gun, air rifle, or other similar device commonly referred to as a B-B gun.
You need to find a safe place to play before you do anything else.
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by 81stleader » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:08 pm

Ok that you guys, ummm...another question is where is a good open area around the Iron Range to train

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Viper » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:23 pm

81stleader wrote:Ok that you guys, ummm...another question is where is a good open area around the Iron Range to train
Do yourself a favor and read through all the newbie threads viewforum.php?f=30 and all the stickys you find.

Whether intentionally or not, you're essentially asking where and how to break the law. As Erik mentioned, playing airsoft on public property is illegal. Playing airsoft on private property without express owner consent is illegal. Playing without knowing the laws, without insurance, without proper safety gear, without being obscured from public view, and without notifying local law enforcement about your activities, are all stupid and dangerous ideas.

Playing in a parking lot or anywhere in the range is "backyard airsoft", which is airsoft on non-sanctioned fields (i.e. illegal play). It is quite dangerous, both to you, and to the rest of us who truly enjoy this sport/hobby. It's dangerous to you because it puts you at risk to have police come and possibly arrest you, accidentally shoot you, confiscate your guns, etc. It's dangerous because if someone gets hurt there's no insurance. It's dangerous because an innocent person near the game could get injured. It's dangerous to the sport because every time someone illegally plays airsoft, it puts a negative image on the sport. Whenever someone gets arrested or hurt or killed because of airsoft, it brings us closer and closer to having airsoft outlawed. The MAA has people (like Erik) who work with lawmakers to make sure safe, responsible airsoft survives, but backyard airsoft makes it harder and harder to do so.

Please, if you want to get involved in airsoft, play at approved fields. Come to SFP in Buffalo, Mission Creek in Hinckley, FFA in Rochester, or CombatPaintball in Deer Park, WI, ....
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Guges Mk3 » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:04 pm

Or play on secluded private property outside of city limits where "Absolutely No One" can see you play, and report your actions as "Nuts running around with guns"

As for paint, forget it they are the worst thing ever made for airsoft. If you want to shoot each other with paint, play paintball!

As for why its bad this is why.

1 Inaccurate manufacturing

Airsoft barrels run in 6.08m average on "stock" AEG's. Paint balls for airsoft run anywhere from 6.05mm to 6.15mm+, they average around 6.10mm. And thus they will shatter when the nozzle tries to shove that into a barrel. Cold will make it brittle, heat will make them expand. Bad!

2 They are to light.

Airsoft paint balls are to light. They average in weight of about .10grams. This makes them highly unstable in flight in anything over 300fps. You will only hit sky.

3 They are toxic.

Airsoft paint balls are made with an organic solvent based paint. It is not meant to be ingested, it will dissolve cheap paint. it will burn you eye if it sprays you there...not good.

Those are the major reasons...if you want minor reasons...I can give them too.
Last edited by Guges Mk3 on Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by 81stleader » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:15 pm

O.k. Thank you for the reasons. Anything else I should know?

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Trippy » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:33 am

An abandoned clinic in Virginia? Out of curiosity, where exactly is it?
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by 81stleader » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:23 pm

if you take 2nd ave into town from 169, and you go around the bend, across from car dealership. they pile snow there now in the parking lot.

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Guges Mk3 » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:42 pm

And the $100,000.00 questions is...how would you have gotten into the clinic?
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by 81stleader » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:14 pm

oh no no no no, not into im talking battle on the snow pile, its about 20ft tall, and the top area is huge. prolly 20ft wide by 50ft long, with dips, and natural obstacles.

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by WarGod » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:36 pm

Sounds like an injury begging to happen...
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Bunny » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:29 pm

... Sounds like a parking lot in a city ... a city with laws against the use of airsoft guns.

Sounds like a unsafe and illegal place to play.

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Shady-Cadence » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:36 pm

If it's across the street from a dealership, then you can and will be seen running around heavily armed with machine guns, and the police WILL respond accordingly! Please scrap this plan! It could get you killed, shot, arrested, scared shitless and quite possibly publicly displayed as a flaming dumbass if your story makes the news (which it probably will). None of those sound good to me.
A local paintball field would probably let you play on the cheap, check around.
Just DON'T play there.
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by WarGod » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:54 pm

Shady-Cadence wrote:Just DON'T play there.
Well, unless you don't wanna make it to see your 21st birthday anyway...
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by 81stleader » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:15 am

ok update:
We scrapped the idea of playing anywhere in Virginia
We have found an old paintball field up by the watertower in GIlbert, mind you this is deep forest, and it has been used before. Know i know that people like to walk back there. how do i warn them without talkin to them. This field is out of city limits, and has been used by city officials for the use of painball

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Guges Mk3 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:38 am

81stleader wrote:o...Know i know that people like to walk back there. how do i warn them without talkin to them....
Are you asking how you can contact them about it since you have never spoken to them before and don't know who they are?
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by 81stleader » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:46 am

like if someone took their dog for a walk...
I think im gunna talk to the police to see, if I can get some caution tape

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Erik » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:16 am

Okay, first question: do you have permission to play on the paintball field? Have you talked to the owner of the property?
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Wolfwood » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:03 am

1. I hope you guys are playing with proper eye protection. What are you using?

2. If its private land, you need permission from the owner. If there are passerby's, playing is a no-go. Airsoft guns ARE weapons. That CAN blind, hurt, maim. If people think you are shooting at them with real guns, then it is a felony. Since airsoft looks like a real gun, its pretty easy to fall into that.

3. If its public land, talk to Law enforcement. Again, if people are walking dogs up there, you need to find a new place to play.
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Erik » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:26 am

Publicly accessible land can be safely played on, if you can secure it. The best way to do this is by posting signs on the edge of the property warning people there is an Airsoft game in progress and eye protection is required. Posting the cell phone # of the game organizer on the signs is also a good idea.

You want to secure the area outside of play, creating a "buffer zone" of 50-100 feet between the area in play and the border of the property. This is to prevent stray shots from going offsite.

However, if you don't have control of the property, you can't secure it.

Here is an example. Every year we run BATC at Ham Lake on publicly-accessible land. However, because we are renting the property, we can post it to keep people out, and if people wander in, we can ask them to leave.

There is a big difference between that, and just walking onto the property and setting up your game.

You need to contact the property owners and secure an agreement to use the land. Once you have done that, you can post and secure it for your games.

Please note that the police CANNOT give you permission to play on a property. You have to talk to the property owner. If it is public land, you need to talk to the government entity which manages it.

It is also HIGHLY RECOMMENDED that you notify local law enforcement as a courtesey about what you are doing. This can prevent serious problems if someone sees your game in progress and calls the police/sheriff.
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by 81stleader » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:39 am

Ok, this is in the forest, and yes we have ballistic eye glass, i feel aqward asking and/or telling police, but will do so for saftey sakes. We plan on bulding structures as far as bunkers, (using old truck toppers, and digging holes, these will be our staging areas. also for respawn. Any suggestion for safe structures?

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by THE ARCHANGEL » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:40 am

81stleader wrote:Ok, this is in the forest, and yes we have ballistic eye glass,
What does that mean? are they Ansi rated and meant to withstand continued contact? Safety glasses are not suitable. The crappy glasses you see sold next to Airsoft guns at places like Fleet Farm and Gander are not suitable. I would encourage you to use full sealed goggles, not just glasses. It's your eyes man....don;t risk them.
81stleader wrote:i feel aqward asking and/or telling police, but will do so for saftey sakes.
Doesn;t matter if you feel awkward....and you want to develop a good relationship with local law enforcement if you plan on playing Airsoft.
81stleader wrote:We plan on bulding structures as far as bunkers, (using old truck toppers, and digging holes, these will be our staging areas. also for respawn. Any suggestion for safe structures?
Do you have permission to build? I guess taking a step back, do you have permission to play there? How about insurance? If you don't have any, the owner should....in fact if the owner is asking you to sign waivers....the whole thing is fouled up.

I know you want to play Airsoft but there really is a safe way to do it:

Get permission from the field owner.
Make sure the field owner has APPROPRIATE Insurance (home/land owners insurance will cover playing Airsoft but likely not enough to pay for real damages)
Make sure the field owner has waivers.
Make sure you properly mark the field (with signs or tape....and anyone can buy caution tape)
Make sure you alert local law enforcement and neighbors....so they are not shocked.

It's not hard to do....but make sure you have everything straight before you play.
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by 81stleader » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:21 pm

Ok, the field is no ones property, its owned by the city and has been used for paintball, waivers i want signed by everyone playing. The glasses we have seal the whole face, like ski goggles but are ballistic, and we tested them, they withstand long past what they should

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Guges Mk3 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:46 pm

Do you know the brand? Are they truly rated?

How much are your eyes worth if your wrong?
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Erik » Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:01 pm

81stleader wrote:Ok, the field is no ones property, its owned by the city and has been used for paintball, waivers i want signed by everyone playing. The glasses we have seal the whole face, like ski goggles but are ballistic, and we tested them, they withstand long past what they should
You need to do the following to have a responsible, legal game:

1. Contact the city and get written permission from the entity who runs the property, saying you can use it.

2. You can play on waivers, but insurance is a much better idea. You (or your parents, if you are under 18) could be sued if someone is injured during the game.

3. Once you have secured the legal use of the property, notify local law enforcement as a courtesy.

4. On game day, post the area so people won't wander in.

As for goggles...they're your eyes. We recommend ANSI z.87.1 standard goggles with a full seal.

A lot of people are giving you a lot of advice - it's ultimately up to you if you want to take it or not. We're not trying to make your airsoft play difficult - we just don't want you getting injured, killed, arrested or sued.
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Wolfe » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:22 pm

Erik wrote: We're not trying to make your airsoft play difficult - we just don't want you getting injured, killed, arrested or sued.
That, and if something happens, the media and law makers could get a hold of the situation, and possibly ruin (Outlaw, strict restrictions, etc) the sport for everyone here and in MN. We are part of the lucky few states that does not require an orange tip on the gun, or a neon painted gun, or even disallows guns (read Erik's page about Orange tips, though, good article.). There is ALWAYS that chance of that happening when you play ILLEGALLY. :?

Stay absent from illegal play, and you'll never catch an airsoft STD.
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Guges Mk3 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:37 pm

There were incidents in Mpls and St. Paul that almost got Airsoft Heavily Restricted if not enacted in a banned manner if it were not for Erik and other members of the MAA to clearly define and allow airsoft to survive and flourish.

You wouldn't want to be known as the person that got Airsoft Banned on Da Range would you?
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by 81stleader » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:31 am

Thank you for the list of to-do's. I am starting that now, i have got a call into City Council Member Dan Berry, who used the land for paintball more than once, everyone playing is going to be over 18, and sign a wavier so they cannot sue. We do require Goggles, fully sealed, goggles, and face armor is invited.
i will get Signs, and post them as soon as summer comes around (on game day of course). Law enforcement, knows me well here. I will still talk to them, and im sure they will give it the thumbs up. Should I talk to the council, during the next meeting?

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by Guges Mk3 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:45 am

A waiver does NOT protect you from negligence where you can get sued.

Plan and prepare accordingly.
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

Don't fear the gun...fear the one that's wielding it!

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by WarGod » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:07 am

81stleader wrote:sign a wavier so they cannot sue.
A signed waiver is worth about as much as the paper it's written on. I have seen MANY times where someone signs a waiver, gets hurt, sues, then wins. Meanwhile the person holding the waiver is left footing the bill.

To add to my post and reinforce my point, I once signed a waiver to do a ridealong that read "I am willingly participating in this ride along and understand the dangers associated with such ride along. I will not hold the ____ Police Department responsible for any injuries, or death, that may occur during my ride along." and after I signed it the shift Sergeant said "thanks...although this doesn't protect us for shit....as evident by last years debacle". So even listing every conceivable outcome will not protect you because there are ways to argue around it....especially with our litigious society.
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Re: A few Questions...

Post by bikemancs » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:00 pm

WarGod wrote:
To add to my post and reinforce my point, I once signed a waiver to do a ridealong that read "I am willingly participating in this ride along and understand the dangers associated with such ride along. I will not hold the ____ Police Department responsible for any injuries, or death, that may occur during my ride along." and after I signed it the shift Sergeant said "thanks...although this doesn't protect us for shit....as evident by last years debacle". So even listing every conceivable outcome will not protect you because there are ways to argue around it....especially with our litigious society.
you don't hold the PD liable, but you can hold the city liable... thus, it's all in the wording, there's no way to get around it.

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Re: A few Questions...

Post by WarGod » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:24 pm

I'm sure there is something about the city in there. Looking at the one we have it says the city within the 3 pages of crap you have to sign...the point I was making is waivers are worthless for the most part...they don't protect you under everything.
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