Erik hates orange tips

Discuss Safety issues and possible training ideas.

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Erik
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Erik hates orange tips

Post by Erik » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:20 pm

DISCLAIMER: This rant represents a personal opinion and should not be interperted as being endorsed by the MAA or representing MAA policy.

I realized today that I hate orange tips for reasons much more than cosmetic.

Orange tips in the Airsoft community are creating a false sense of safety that is leading to reckless, dangerous, stupid and sometimes illegal behavior. Parents are letting kids play in the streets because they think orange tips will be adequate to convince responding officers that a real firearm is not involved.

This is completely false. Officers are being trained to ignore orange tips, as there are cases where criminals have put fake orange tips on real guns.

Furthermore, it can be difficult to even see an orange tip. A well-trained officer will be pointing a real gun at anyone he/she suspects to be armed well before they are close enough to see an orange tip. If the gun is a holstered pistol, the orange tip would not be visible.

Orange tips encourage poor gun handling practices. Players see the orange tip on their gun, they know it's a toy, and they treat it like a toy. The result of this sloppy gun handling is accidental discharges, unintentional property damage, and injuries. I strongly believe that if something looks like a real gun, you are more likely to treat it that way.

Orange tips are not a solution to Airsoft problems, they are part of the problem. We need to give our guns the respect they deserve.

1. Treat all guns as if they are loaded.
2. Never point your gun at anything you do not intend to shoot.
3. Be aware of your target, and what is beyond it.
4. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and have decided to fire.

If you think you need an orange tip on your gun for safety reasons, please sell your Airsoft guns and take up Nerf.
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by caveman » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:53 pm

Some what on topic:
So did the rule for BATC that you can't have an orange tip get added recently? (In part because of recent realization.) I ask because I must have looked at the BATC requirements over a dozen times, and I swear that I just noticed the orange tip thing yesterday. It could be that I never noticed it before because I never had a gun with an orange tip. (At least not one that stayed on there long.)
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by mojocatt » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:26 pm

What gets me the most is the amount of passion these little orange tips can generate. :? I was reading about some of the previous orange tip discussions, and myths seem to flow freely on the subject. It's even been the cause of some inturwub nasties.

I agree with you, the orange tip could in fact reduce safety by giving a false sense of security. People who insist orange tips could prevent an "incident" really need to think the subject over with a little more care.
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by Wolfwood » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:05 pm

I completely agree that orange tips are not a substitute for any kind of safety measure. They are not reliably seen and they don't mean much.

HOWEVER

Implying that somehow they make guns unsafe, or that anyone who has an orange tip on their gun (and still handling them safely) is flat out wrong. The fact of the matter is they are still required by law for importation, and their are fields out there that require them. If your going to play safe, this is a non-issue, but while a police officer would never assume an orange tip means the gun is magically safe, police officers have brains in their head which will help them take in an entire situation and hopefully give the kid holding an airsoft gun a chance to appear less like he is holding up a liquor store and more like he is an idiot with a realistic toy gun. As bad of an idea it is to bring a airsoft gun into public is, it is NOT deserving of being shot, injured, hurt, or anything of that kind.

Realistically, orange tips due no harm. If a parent honestly believes an orange tip will make a gun ok to use in public, they are not going to stop a kid if there was no orange tip in the first place.

So while I agree that preaching that an orange tip doesn't equal safety is ok, it is wrong to somehow imply to safety-minded people that orange tips are wrong or more dangerous.
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by Erik » Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:42 pm

Wolfwood wrote:So while I agree that preaching that an orange tip doesn't equal safety is ok, it is wrong to somehow imply to safety-minded people that orange tips are wrong or more dangerous.
My point is simple: orange tips do nothing for safety, and thoughtless people assume they do.
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by snailpoe » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:02 pm

Question.
do you have to have the orange tips at MAA events? is it ok to paint them black?

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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by MajWinters636 » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:05 pm

orange tips are not required...
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by DaveTheAirsoftGuy » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:33 pm

i agree with not only erik but with trikx my uncle who used to be a S.W.A.T. member for bloomington told me a story once about how one of his buddys on the force almost shot a kid because the kid pointed a airsoft gun in his direction. luckly no one was hurt but i think someone somewhere should think of a new way to make these things stand out more as a non-lethal weapon. not only about telling kids that they shouldnt be so reckless but that they should almost treat it as a gun. because to someone else that might be what it is. and someone might get shot because of it. i remember about a year ago a teen in st.paul i think it was, was shot and killed because he pointed an air soft gun at a cop and the cop shot him and killed him. people just gotta realize that they aernt just toys.
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by Lone » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:45 pm

DaveTheAirsoftGuy wrote:should almost treat it as a gun.
All airsoft guns should be treated as a real gun, weather or not they have an orange tip or even the clear cheapies. Even though the clear cheapies are hard to be mistaken as a real gun, they can still inflict harm. That is why they should always be safetied and only used in the proper environment, like all real guns.

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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by Tank » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:21 pm

DaveTheAirsoftGuy wrote:...i think someone somewhere should think of a new way to make these things stand out more as a non-lethal weapon...
There is no way to do that short of making them all look like brightly colored Nerf guns.
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by DaveTheAirsoftGuy » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:56 pm

thats true tank
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by Eh_Well » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:40 pm

Tank wrote:
DaveTheAirsoftGuy wrote:...i think someone somewhere should think of a new way to make these things stand out more as a non-lethal weapon...
There is no way to do that short of making them all look like brightly colored Nerf guns.
Even then they could still be real guns disguised with bright paint. The only way to do it is to only use clear plastic. However I'm pretty sure NONE of us want that...

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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by lord_coz » Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:47 pm

security theater strikes again.

have you ever seen a cat try to jump on something that was not structural?
the cat thinks that "its opaque therefore it will support my weight"

the orange tip is the same sort of thing, somehow the little orange nub makes it nurf

yet another example of people making laws/ rules having no idea what they are doing or how its harmful.

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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by Mailman » Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:48 pm

agree that orange tips do nothing, also they take some the the realism out of playing . But i can also see how we do need them.
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by otherrandomhero » Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:08 pm

Tank wrote:There is no way to do that short of making them all look like brightly colored Nerf guns.
Also known as the England strategy.

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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by Mr.MG42 » Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:03 am

For me when i go airsofting i have the safety on at nessicary time(like always :) ), then i do i t when i handle a Shotgun for Clays or so i "train" my self when airsofting, when shooting shotgun :D
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by Eh_Well » Fri Dec 26, 2008 3:44 pm

Mr.MG42 wrote:For me when i go airsofting i have the safety on at nessicary time(like always :) ), then i do i t when i handle a Shotgun for Clays or so i "train" my self when airsofting, when shooting shotgun :D
I fail to see how this relates to orange tips at all...

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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by Mr.MG42 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:04 pm

Eh_Well wrote:
Mr.MG42 wrote:For me when i go airsofting i have the safety on at nessicary time(like always :) ), then i do i t when i handle a Shotgun for Clays or so i "train" my self when airsofting, when shooting shotgun :D
I fail to see how this relates to orange tips at all...
Eh_Well i was cometing about what Lone said that airsoft guns should be treated as a real gun :)

//qoute///All airsoft guns should be treated as a real gun, weather or not they have an orange tip or even the clear cheapies. Even though the clear cheapies are hard to be mistaken as a real gun, they can still inflict harm. That is why they should always be safetied and only used in the proper environment, like all real guns.
//qoute//
"During WW2, the French resistance fighters, in their finest hour, bravely threw sticks of dynamite at the advancing German troops. The Germans then lit them and threw them back.

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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by Eh_Well » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:06 am

Mr.MG42 wrote:
Eh_Well wrote:
Mr.MG42 wrote:For me when i go airsofting i have the safety on at nessicary time(like always :) ), then i do i t when i handle a Shotgun for Clays or so i "train" my self when airsofting, when shooting shotgun :D
I fail to see how this relates to orange tips at all...
Eh_Well i was cometing about what Lone said that airsoft guns should be treated as a real gun :)

//qoute///All airsoft guns should be treated as a real gun, weather or not they have an orange tip or even the clear cheapies. Even though the clear cheapies are hard to be mistaken as a real gun, they can still inflict harm. That is why they should always be safetied and only used in the proper environment, like all real guns.
//qoute//
Oh alright, sorry about that haha. You can understand my confusion.

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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by CADSNIPER101 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:17 am

I think that Erik is 100% right i this case people are failing to see the need of orange tips. The reason that they are on the Airsoft Guns themselves is because law-enforcement wanted to know how to tell them apart from real guns. Which is a good idea but the gun companies made them removable for a reason so that you can take them off. And people did so thats why silencers were made at the same time Airsoft Guns got threads on the barrels. Everyone is going to take them off thats just how life is people want there guns to look real and the orange tip makes it look stupid. It is true that law enforcement officers are trained to ignore any orange tips. So think about this if you were a law enforcement officer and you were in the field during a regular day and you got a call to a gun disturbance and there were "shots" fired. Shots is in parentheses because it is only bb's. Now when that law enforcement officer rolls up he is automatically gonna have his gun drawn. And not only on top of that all he has is a Glock pistol. And then he sees his suspect a kid or an adult shooting his gun lets say an AK-47 or a M4 variant. With or without an orange tip. Do you really think that officer is going to hesitate to take down his target to make the situation safe or do you think he is going to take the chance of getting shot and then trying to defend himself after having a bullet in his arm or chest. Or put you in his shoes and you have a family to go home to. Along with that every law enforcement officer knows that their are criminals out their with orange tips on real guns. So orange tips shouldn't even be put on guns anymore. They should use black flash hider's. If you aren't responsible enough to use your weapon yes weapon in a responsible way then you shouldn't have it and you are a threat to yourself and all the people around you. Along with that you are endangering the MAA or any Airsofting because it is going to give us a bad reputation making it even harder to make it permissible to play in areas even if you do have permits.
This is something that i feel extremely strong about because i love Airsoft and i want to be able to play it without some idiot running out into public waving his Airsoft gun around. Now for keeping things safe if you don't treat your guns like real guns from the second that they are in your possession your a moron. They are real guns they can kill people.

[quote]"Anything above 350fps using .2g BBs will be able to break skin at point blank.
400fps will break skin if it hits something exposed
450fps can break skin at distances over 50ft, again, on exposed skin part of the time
500fps using .2g, but using heavier BBs (as one should wiht a high-powered gun) should leave bleeding welts out to almost 100ft. Breaking skin is no problem under 50ft.
600fps: you have to use heavy BBs (or you're a moron). These can put an eye clean out, and plant BBs under skin under 50ft. I'm no ballistics expert, but this is almost as much energy as a paintball gun, BUT, it's concentrated on 1/9th the area -- about 5-7 times the ability to damage the target./quote]

This is a serious report because some guns can shoot over 600 fps so that means they you are basically shooting a real gun at someone besides the fact that they look like real guns. People have the option of wearing full face masks and just goggles but imagine getting hit in the temple with an Airsoft gun that shoots 450 fps that has potential to kill someone. But gun safety is so much more than just the pain that you receive from the gun its the way that you treat it. From every gun that i have seen at an Airsoft game so far they are all replicas of real guns in use in the modern world. I think that along with that it should be a requirement to go through a gun safety class before you are allowed to have possession of an Airsoft gun or purchase them. They are real guns so we should treat them like them. Along with that making people go through the class will not only inform them on how to handle them but make them show more of a respect for them which is needed because people are doing foolish things with them.

When you go through gun safety the first basic principle that they teach you is to
TREAT EVERY GUN AS IF IT WERE REAL AND LOADED!!!!!!!!
If you don't you are flat out retarded and causing problems. Everyone should take this seriously. Examples of this are even shown it sporting good stores with wooden models with scopes on them to try the scopes out. They always tell you to find a target in the ceiling to look at. This is so crucial to the safety of everyone because if we fail to follow this principle then there is no way that you can be safe with guns. Their are hundreds of examples of kids playing with guns thinking they are unloaded when there is still one round in the chamber and they pull the trigger at their brother or sister and they shoot them and kill them. Lets not make this the case with Airsoft. Even in the staging area of Airsoft games with are barrel blockers/condoms on we shouldn't be dry firing and we should always have are guns pointed in a safe direction. Practicing this will help us all become more responsible and safe people and we can all improve on this myself included.

The second basic principle that they teach you is that you
ALWAYS POINT YOUR MUZZLE AWAY FROM NON TARGETS!!!!!!!!
This is so simple. Just don't point your gun at people when you are in the staging area. Its such a simple concept and everyone once again including myself needs to work on to make the Airsoft community a safer place to be. If we cant show respect with these fake guns that can still kill people god knows what will happen if someone ever gets a real gun in their hands. This also applies to the first gun "law" we need to treat them like they are real but along with that point them in safe directions another example of this is a holster. Something so simple all you do is put your weapon in it and it keeps it pointed at the ground at all times cant get any safer than that. As long as you have the safety on. I feel like this is just as important as the first one because if we don't follow both then we are ailing to see the concept of why these rules are in place.

The third basic principle that i think is the easiest of them all is to
KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNLESS YOU ARE FIRING!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now lets be honest if you cant keep your finger off the trigger for the ten minutes that you aren't in play and in the staging area to keep everyones lives safer their is something wrong with you and i don't know why you are playing the sport. Because i would like my life to be safe at all times.

The last and final basic principle that they drill into you is that
YOU NEED TO KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHATS BEYOND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This may not apply to Airsoft games because you are trying to "kill" everything on the other side of the field but still show some responsibility but this applies more to when we are at are homes and or at anything else that we would be using are guns at.

Finally orange tips are not a solution to any problems they are merely making a slight impact in a negative way to everything. They just give the false impression to everyone that they are safe and then the fact that people are using them on real guns makes them useless anyways. We should all be responsible and accounted for in are actions with safety because it is the most important thing. And my last comment is that i agree with erick on his final sentence. [quote]If you think you need an orange tip on your gun for safety reasons, please sell your Airsoft guns and take up Nerf./quote] It may sound funny to some people but i take this seriously. There is no need for people to be waving their Airsoft guns around off their deck when you are at home still practice these principals keep your guns unloaded and in a locked case. It will help everyone.
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:42 pm

I want to point out a fact...most officers will break out an automatic weapon or a shotgun to a gun call. They will not use their pistol first.
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by CADSNIPER101 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:20 pm

Guges Mk3 wrote:I want to point out a fact...most officers will break out an automatic weapon or a shotgun to a gun call. They will not use their pistol first.
Yes sorry i forgot to point that out. In Minnesota they do i know that but not in all states are regular officers permitted to use Automatic Weapons. Thank you for pointing that out.
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:26 pm

99% of the jurisdiction out there have some sort of "long gun".
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by CADSNIPER101 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:11 pm

Guges Mk3 wrote:99% of the jurisdiction out there have some sort of "long gun".

Sorry to get off topic but what is defined as a "long gun". Because i know that what is standard in Minnesota is the Stag Arms AR-15. Is that what you mean?
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by WarGod » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:36 pm

CADSNIPER101 wrote:
Guges Mk3 wrote:I want to point out a fact...most officers will break out an automatic weapon or a shotgun to a gun call. They will not use their pistol first.
Yes sorry i forgot to point that out. In Minnesota they do i know that but not in all states are regular officers permitted to use Automatic Weapons. Thank you for pointing that out.
I have yet to hear of an agency that uses a Stag Arms AR15, most use Colt or DPMS. I know of one place that uses Bushmaster but the rest of the ones I know use DPMS or Colt

Oh, forgot, a "long gun" is a rifle or shotgun.

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I'm not claiming to know what every dept does or carries, but I know a lot about a lot of agencies.
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by Guges Mk3 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:55 am

No agency I know of uses STAG in MN...but I only know of 6 and they all use Colts and on Oahu its Colt only for now. Maui allows any AR type of carbine.
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Re: Erik hates orange tips

Post by CADSNIPER101 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:49 pm

Guges Mk3 wrote:No agency I know of uses STAG in MN...but I only know of 6 and they all use Colts and on Oahu its Colt only for now. Maui allows any AR type of carbine.
Ok so to start off holy cow Guges! Your like a freaking gun genus!!! I'm very jealous of your knowlage.

But to your comment i'm not sure if this is department or personal but one time I was on a campout for boyscouts yes boyscouts I know embarrassing but I have learned alot of things that have helped me but anyways. When we were there a sheirff pulled in to the camp ground to see what was going on and we started talking and he had a STAG Arms AR-15 that he pulled out and let us hold and stuff of coarse unloaded and on safety using all the safety precautions but it was pretty sweet I'm not sure which county he was from but I know it was a STAG.

Sorry Erik for getting off topic.
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