Ethical use of .12g BBs at MAA games

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Jin
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Ethical use of .12g BBs at MAA games

Post by Jin » Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:29 pm

I decided to start this topic because I feel that there are certain circumstances under which the use of .12g BBs could be quite appropriate and I havn't seen anything mentioned about the use of .12s in the MAA safety and rules documents.

Basicly, I would like to find out if there are certain circumstances under which it is valid to use .12g BBs instead of .2s or .25s. Outside of cheap spring pistols, I would like to know if using .12g BBs in Maruzen shell ejecting shotguns or Madbull grenades would be acceptable?

For instance, my Maruzen M1100 Revision shotgun will simply not function with .2g BBs. No matter how many I load it with the shell will always jam in the breech if I try to use .2s in it. The only way it will properly eject the shell is if I use a full load of nine .12g BBs in it.
Also, gas powered shell ejecting shotguns generally have a very very limited range and FPS when using .2g BBs, so I think it the use of .12g BBs in these shotguns might be quite acceptable. After all, these shotguns are not about accuracy, they're about area saturation, so the inaccuracy of a .12g BB would not be an issue. They're power is so low that even with a load of .12g BBs in the shells they should still be well under the MAA FPS limits.

My second idea was the use of .12g BBs in airsoft M203 grenades. These grenades tend to have a very limited range, low FPS, and are more for area saturation than accuracy (much like shell ejecting shotguns). So to improve the range a bit do you think it would be ethical to use .12s in these shells? Mind you I'm refering only to the 134a and green gas powered shells, as the C02 powered ones get an ample range as is (but those are rather uncommon and difficult to find).


I'd really like to hear people's thoughts on this one and see if there are any official rules in the MAA charters about the use of .12g BBs. I would never dream of using them in an AEG, but I think for cheapo springer pistols, gas powered shell ejecting shotguns, and M203 grenades they should be quite fine.
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Post by LT Tahoe » Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:57 pm

I don't understand what the issue is; as long as the gun is chrono'd with .2's and meets the rules, you can use whatever weight you want, I would think.

If you want to use some of those .88g BBs in your AEG, go ahead--you won't hit anything past 20', but it would be funny. No matter what the BB weight, it imparts the same energy at the muzzle.

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Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:58 pm

There is no mention of .12's in the rules due to the fact being there are no restrictions on a .12 bb.

Reason why we don't use .12's is the horrible accuracy that they impart.

Your M1100 won't even fire and eject a shell with one .20 bb in it? But will with .12's. That is highly unusual. When had a M1100 I would load 3 - .23, 3 - .20 and 3 - .12's for maximum effect.
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Post by Gir » Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:58 pm

I believe the requirement was that, with .2g bbs, it fired below regulations (.2g bb fired at 330 fps, means a .12 would be *just throwing a number out there* 370, but because the .2 fired under 350 for indoor, you are fine).

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Post by Jin » Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:13 pm

Hmmm okay, that clears the issue up then! As long as the gun chronos under the limit with .2s you can use whatever you like in it. The only time I'd use .12s would be for the shell ejecting shotgun and M203 grenades, but it's good to know the rules regarding it :)

Guges Mk3 wrote: Your M1100 won't even fire and eject a shell with one .20 bb in it? But will with .12's. That is highly unusual. When had a M1100 I would load 3 - .23, 3 - .20 and 3 - .12's for maximum effect.
And yeah, I've tried loading everywhere from one .2g BB in the shell all the way up to 9 per shell and no matter what I try it simply won't eject the shell when using .2g BBs. It fires the BBs but the shell either doesnt eject at all or jams in the breech halfway through ejection. The absolute only way I've been able to get it to work properly is to use nine .12g BBs in each shell.
If you'd like to take a look at this shotgun sometime and see if you can get it tuned a bit better to fire right with .2s I'd certainly appreciate it! But for now the only way it works is with nine .12s per shell.
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Post by LT Tahoe » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:11 pm

I remember once reading an article (maybe on Arnie's?) about a fix for those shotguns--something about the gas system being poorly set up, and a fix being fairly simple. Worth looking into.

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Post by Wolfwood » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:53 pm

Gir wrote:I believe the requirement was that, with .2g bbs, it fired below regulations (.2g bb fired at 330 fps, means a .12 would be *just throwing a number out there* 370, but because the .2 fired under 350 for indoor, you are fine).
You are correct. Its Energy Output that matters, and thats the same with any weight BB. As long as the gun clears with a .20 you can use whatever. However, it is not allowed to use .12s in a gun that would fire faster than 400 (350 indoors) with .20s.
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Post by yo » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:36 pm

just for fun, and assuming that the spring has a linear power delivery curve...

a gun which shoots .20g at 400fps will shoot
--.25g at 358fps
--.12g at 517fps

a gun which shoots .20g at 350fps will shoot
--.25g at 315fps
--.12g at 454fps


I think that it is interesting to see how much faster the lower weight bb will be fired at though we know from practical knowledge that you do not gain any range because .12s are like little bees and fly in every which way direction.
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Post by Wolfwood » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:03 am

They won't actually hit that FPS, I have tried. You start introducing drag, turbulence, and hop-up into the equation and the speeds start drastically changing. I have actually seen a 300% spring fire a .30 BB faster (velocity wise) than a .20. Once you put too much energy behind a BB it starts flying erratically and loses its energy.
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Post by Guges Mk3 » Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:19 am

The rule of thumb that I have found to be consistent for a 10" barrel, .20 bb's with a 340fps base line is this:

.30 - ~240fps
.28 - ~260fps
.25 - ~290fps
.23 - ~310fps

.18 - ~360fps
.12 - ~420fps

yes...its 10fps per .10 gram weight difference.

However...this mentions nothing of accuracy...but this base line works very well.

I creep out a lot of newbies with this info when they ask what an AEG will shoot with a certain spring and a certain bb weight.

"...What will my AK shoot with .25 bb's..."

What spring do you have?

"M120"

SystemA? How long have you had the spring? And are you using a stock barrel?

"Yes...about 3 weeks and it is a stock barrel...I am going to get a tight bore next..."

ummm...311FPS.

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Last edited by Guges Mk3 on Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by yo » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:13 pm

Wolfwood wrote:They won't actually hit that FPS, I have tried. You start introducing drag, turbulence, and hop-up into the equation and the speeds start drastically changing. I have actually seen a 300% spring fire a .30 BB faster (velocity wise) than a .20. Once you put too much energy behind a BB it starts flying erratically and loses its energy.

It doens't fly erratically and lose its enery, it just enters the chrono at some angle theta because it is flying erratically. The energy will be conserved over a short distance, so assuming the chrono is close to the muzzle they will reach that velocity.

Now the real question is whether the springs properties will be consistent with the lower mass bbs which is most likely the reason why we cannont get .12g to fly at the theoretical speed we can calculate. Remember, .12g bbs are practically half the weight of the normal .20g which may put the spring in the non-linear part of its power curve.
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Post by CJ STALKER » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:26 pm

just a stupid Q (theres no stupid Q's theres only stupid people) what if you were loading a mag in the middel of the game and a guy gose by you and you chuck a hand full of bbs at him dose it count??

***mega edit***
Last edited by CJ STALKER on Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by LTC Lipinski » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:42 pm

Wait.
I'll try and translate..

I'm your hand.. Losing a mag in the Middle of the game and a guy goose by you and you chuck a hand full of BB's at him does it count?

Is this an old riddle?
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Post by IFallsAirsofter » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:46 pm

this kid has asked the same question in more than one topic, at random times.

And I belive it will count. afterall it is a bb, its just like if your guns battery dies and there is no time to replace it, just take your mags out and put a little stick where the bbs are held back and shoot!

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Post by Faust » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:47 pm

Guges Mk3 wrote:The rule of thumb that I have found to be consistent for a 10" barrel, .20 bb's with a 340fps base line is this:

.30 - ~240fps
.28 - ~260fps
.25 - ~290fps
.23 - ~310fps

.18 - ~360fps
.12 - ~420fps

yes...its 10fps per .10 gram weight difference.

However...this mentions nothing of accuracy...but this base line works very well.

I creep out a lot of newbies with this info when they ask what an AEG will shoot with a certain spring and a certain bb weight.

"...What will my AK shoot with .25 bb's..."

What spring do you have?

"M120"

SystemA? How long have you had the spring? and are you suing a stock barrel?

"Yes...about 3 weeks and it is a stock barrel...I am going to get a tight bore next..."

ummm...311FPS.

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Haha I was one of those newbies you amazed back in the day...

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Post by CJ STALKER » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:48 pm

yah but no one noticed it in other topic's.

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Post by LTC Lipinski » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:48 pm

But it is supposed to be realistic. You can't kill someone by throwing bullets at them. Unless you are awesome.
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Post by fadedcorona » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:18 pm

If I am assuming this properly, you're saying then that with my .34 8mms it is most likely to hot to use if it shoots 280-290 on 134a? ... for indoors at least.
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Post by MCXL » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:31 pm

8 mm bbs have a larger surface area, making the force ore dispersed on impact. so they push the joules a little bit higher, too keep them useable.
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Post by Wolfwood » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:43 pm

it always comes down to the field owner, remember. For example, MAA indoor rules say 350 or below for indoor, but Irish sets his FPS limit at 330, so thats what the MAA goes by when we play there.

And CJ, stop spamming questions. You have a PM incoming.
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Post by Erik » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:49 pm

To answer the original question, so long as a gun chronos within MAA limits you can put any BBs you want in it.

It is a common practice to use .12g in M203 rounds and shotshells.
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Re: Ethical use of .12g BBs at MAA games

Post by caveman » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:08 am

Jin wrote:For instance, my Maruzen M1100 Revision shotgun will simply not function with .2g BBs. No matter how many I load it with the shell will always jam in the breech if I try to use .2s in it.
What kind of gas are you using? I found that green gas won't work well with the M1100. From what I have gathered on the interwub, green gas cycles the bolt too fast and the shell doesn't have time to clear the breach. (Which might explain why .12s worked for you. The lighter BB doesn't create as much back pressure when it is fired.)

As soon as I started using 134a gas I had WAY fewer problems with jamming.

And I use a mix of .2 and .12 in my shells. (Sometimes .23)

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Re: Ethical use of .12g BBs at MAA games

Post by Southern Bulldog » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:13 pm

the only use i found for a .12g is filling my claymore no sence wasting good ammo
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Re: Ethical use of .12g BBs at MAA games

Post by Bunny » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:46 pm

You couldn't have waited two more days to comment?

:D

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Re: Ethical use of .12g BBs at MAA games

Post by DFSM » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:57 pm

Odd.
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