Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

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Guges Mk3
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Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

Post by Guges Mk3 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:13 pm

Reprinted for posterity from ASB and edited.
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'The Scotsman16' date='13 August 2010 - 10:54 AM' timestamp='1281714897' post='226486'
@Guges:
I am not sure why you are saying that hop-up doesn't improve accuracy, when that was one of its purposes... Or is the SCS nub just a scam that 10000 people bought into, and tell all the time about how it makes great differences in accuracy? I dont think so...

I have a KSC that is deadly accurate...I have no idea what the KWA you shot are doing...but all the KSC I have run have no accuracy issues.

Maybe KWA has a different material in their Hop-ups...I never had a KWA...so I do not know. And you have not shot a KSC...so you don't know. Maybe we are both right.

Response to Response:

As for the SCS nub...I am out on that one. TM has no SCS sytem in their AEG's and their hop-up works very well. Madbull came out with the Shark system and people are not finding them that great, they are identical to the SCS System.

For the 10K you think that SCS is all that...I know a 100K that don't think a thing about SCS/Shark and are very happy with their Prom/SystemA/TM hop-ups.

Thing is, SCS in theory is a very sound idea, there are fundamental physical problems that lead me to believe that SCS is more gimmick then actual physical fact.

Here is what I see. SCS nub is designed to match the couture of the bb. However...at what diameter? If it's 6mm...then most bb will be to small and will suffer a single point effect also, albeit on a different scale. This is due to the fact that the radius do not match.

Second issues is the packing. Most SCS are paired with a good packing. Try using a SCS in a stock packing that is hard like vinyl...I bet SCS doesn't work so well then. Notice how everyone adds SCS and a GOOD packing?

Second the packing defeats the concept of SCS...because when you look in the barrel with a packing and SCS nub...what do you see? A straight line, this straight line hampers the SCS nub. It would be very similar in effect to a good packing and a soft nub. Albeit the give will be slightly different, but there is no two point of contact, it will be just one.

Spartan and users of SCS claim that it does this:

Image

What actually reproduces the same effect but on a better scale is a V-Cut packing. When the nub comes it pushes against an internal bar of rubber that has a cut and it splits forming a V.

Like this:
Image

Sadly SCS does nothing like this, which is what everyone is spewing about 2-points of contact. When in fact SCS looks like this with a SystemA packing:

Image

V-Hop Packing after installation in the same G3 Ho-up unit and with hop- arm engaged.

Image

Granted the underlying effects are different based on the SCS nub versus a regular nub. But, in no way does it center a bb in the barrel after it travels past the hop unit, because the backspin will pull the bb up to ride along the top of the barrel as it travels down the barrel.

As for your accuracy statement. Hop-up in no way can improve accuracy. If your shots are hooking all over and you adjust your hop-up. It will still hook all over. By technical definition there is no effect on accuracy. Turn your gun side ways, what happens? BB is going to curve...adjusting the hop-up in this state will not improve accuracy.

Hop-up only induces an increase amount of level flight and that extra distance of level flight is "perceived" accuracy, because the ball would normally fall to the ground without the back spin.

A majority of the increased performance is not so much the effect of the nub, but rather the packing that one installed with the nub. Again, I ask you to try a rubbery vinyl packing if you disagree versus a stretchy SystemA or Prommy packing which so many people use with the SCS nub.

Hop-up is purely a range modifier because it induces the Magnus Effect on a round ball. Ever hear of the Right Hand Rule? You know stuff from High School Physics. If hop-up was a factor of accuracy...why do real rifles follow RHR ballistic concept instead? You know where induced spin is on the axis of flight not like hop-up which induces spin perpendicular to flight?

Now of the old days of muskets...they shot a spherical ball...not very accurate at long range were they?

That is why the "minnie ball" was invented...round balls are terrible for accuracy.

And my last argument for hop-up is for range is this. What does the manual show for adjust a hop-up? It show you how to get the furthest flight possible on one axis...not two.
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Re: Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

Post by Master TCAA » Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:08 am

Well explained Guges..
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Re: Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

Post by mau5 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:56 pm

Sorry to bring up an old topic, but I have a question. Hop-up functions by running the BB along the top of the barrel to create more intense spin as hop-up increases, right? Wouldn't more hop-up, giving more spin to a BB, give that BB less chance to get a spin in a different direction and veer off course? Spin in other directions probably isn't a problem in AEGs worth buying anyways though, eh?

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Re: Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

Post by thetaco » Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:11 am

Probably not.
Getting your hopup tuned correctly is a delicate balance.
apply too much, and your BB flys up in an incredibly steep angle, aply too little and the BB drops off too quickly.
The BB strikes the hopup nub only once as it leaves the gun. When it strikes the nub, thats what creates the spin. The BB riding along the top of the barrel instead of the bottom is just a by product of adding spin to a spherical object inside an enclosed, circular tube.
If you were to add more nubs, you would do more harm than good, because after every impact you would lose FPS and energy.
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Guges Mk3
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Re: Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

Post by Guges Mk3 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:02 am

mau5 wrote:Sorry to bring up an old topic, but I have a question. Hop-up functions by running the BB along the top of the barrel to create more intense spin as hop-up increases, right? Wouldn't more hop-up, giving more spin to a BB, give that BB less chance to get a spin in a different direction and veer off course? Spin in other directions probably isn't a problem in AEGs worth buying anyways though, eh?

Your thinking in areas of Black and White, when most things work in the world of grey.

More Hop-up has its consequences too, excessive lift. Also by imparting massive spin on a ball doesn't mean that other forces can't impart a spin in a different direction. Look at a Cue ball. You can hit it square or you can hit it with "English" to give it additional spin.

So with airsoft, even dirt in a barrel can destabilize a bb putting English on it.
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

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Re: Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

Post by mau5 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:05 pm

Thanks guys. This was all theoretical, I was just talking assuming you could compensate for the ridiculous spin a lot of hop-up would put on a BB, and that the hop-up and barrel would be flawless. But like you said guges, theoretical is usually too black and white to apply to real life situations. Thanks again.

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Re: Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

Post by stickydude1 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:54 am

I realize this is quite an old topic, however i feel like i should make an argument for SCS nubs, as the multiple ones i have had have treated me very well over the time i'v had them. Madbull shark nubs, as well as other H nubs, although similar, work slightly differently. The H nubs are made to create 2 points of contact with the BB, while the SCS is to make still one point of contact, but a point that conforms to the BB. In your pictures of the SCS in the G3 hop up unit, it shows how the nub stretches the packing between the two tips of the SCS when a BB is not loaded into the chamber. This happens because of the elasticity of the packing being used, however when a BB is actually loaded into the chamber, it will push the packing up into the SCS, causing the packing to conform to both the BB and SCS. When installed correctly, the SCS will improve hop up and shot consistency, and range. I have seen examples of this using the same Systema packing with standard, H, and SCS nubs. While they may not be some magical device to improve your gun, they can provide the extra few feet of range and consistency to get that one shot hit. And just for the record, i am currently running a KWA 2Gx packing, and am getting better range and consistency then my SCS Systema setups, however not accuracy, but that is a function of the lack of a tightbore barrel at the moment.

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Re: Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

Post by Guges Mk3 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:02 pm

stickydude1 wrote:I realize this is quite an old topic, however i feel like i should make an argument for SCS nubs, as the multiple ones i have had have treated me very well over the time i'v had them. Madbull shark nubs, as well as other H nubs, although similar, work slightly differently. The H nubs are made to create 2 points of contact with the BB, while the SCS is to make still one point of contact, but a point that conforms to the BB. In your pictures of the SCS in the G3 hop up unit, it shows how the nub stretches the packing between the two tips of the SCS when a BB is not loaded into the chamber. This happens because of the elasticity of the packing being used, however when a BB is actually loaded into the chamber, it will push the packing up into the SCS, causing the packing to conform to both the BB and SCS. When installed correctly, the SCS will improve hop up and shot consistency, and range. I have seen examples of this using the same Systema packing with standard, H, and SCS nubs. While they may not be some magical device to improve your gun, they can provide the extra few feet of range and consistency to get that one shot hit. And just for the record, i am currently running a KWA 2Gx packing, and am getting better range and consistency then my SCS Systema setups, however not accuracy, but that is a function of the lack of a tightbore barrel at the moment.
What your saying is exactly what SCS is saying in their marketing literature.

All Packing causes wrap around on a bb, with a variable based on "nub" type.

But, how do you account for the hundreds of thousand Perfect TM hop-ups with their unmatched accuracy in stock form? They don't have the SCS system and ALL their gus are dead accurate with NO tight bore barrel.

Do you see the marketing Baloney now?
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

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Re: Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

Post by Uncle Acid » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:21 pm

So what is it about the TM hopups that make them so amazing and why isn't it being replicated by companies who have the equipment on hand to do so?
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Re: Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

Post by Rebby13 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:43 am

I knid of want an aswer for the why not replicate questions...

I'm sure its a patented thing like kwa's ns2

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Re: Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

Post by neoM4tech » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:28 pm

slightly off topic but along the same lines.... hop up gives stable straight (vertically) flight. for accuracy you are better off ensuring that your barrel has zero blemishes, be it dirt, grease, or imperfections in the manufacturing. to correct these issues you should ALWAYS clean your barrel after every skirmish (or every week if you backyard plink) along with any NEW barrel should be polished to take out the manufacturing issues. i am new to THIS forum, but if you want more details on polishing/cleaning, or if you want a lengthy theoretical explanation as to the barrel accuracy issue let me know and i will link info.

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Re: Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

Post by SeawolfIV » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:40 pm

Barrel stabilisation is important as well.
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as he chambered another round.

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Re: Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

Post by CLEDUS » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:49 pm

I have no scientific evidence, but I think TM hop ups just seem a lot better because of the lower fps. I believe that it is just more effective at these rates.

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Re: Hop-Up improves range not accuracy.

Post by CrazySpider » Thu May 16, 2013 11:41 pm

Thank you for helping me understand what hop-up is, I'm new to airsoft so I thought that hop-up increased accuracy, not range.
Thanks!
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