Bullpups - Decent starting point?

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SGrog
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Bullpups - Decent starting point?

Post by SGrog » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:06 pm

Good evening,

I have been away from the forum for a fair amount of time it appears! Once again I am looking at airsoft, and after doing more research, and what not, I have become more and more of a fan of the bullpup designs (FS2000, Tavor's) and was wondering what a decent bull-pup is out on the market currently. To help narrow it down, I am looking at no more then about 200, maybe 250 (upper end). Are their stock bull pups (fan of the FS200 and Tavor) that might have a decent exterior, but may need internal upgrades? Or what suggestions would everyone have?

Thank you for your time!

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Slipmad
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Re: Bullpups - Decent starting point?

Post by Slipmad » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:12 pm

Greetings and welcome back to the forums.

I for one am a huge fan of bullpups. My first actual AEG gun that wasn't an lpeag was a JG AUG A1, which i still own to this day. I bought it about 6 years ago and she is still running good and fine. What i like about the Aug specifically is that it doesn't use its own weird gearbox or an exotic one. AUGs use V3 gear boxes so the upgradeable parts are endless. Bullpups are a good starting point but when it comes to your first gun, go with something that is reliable and that you like. If you want to get a Tavor go for it. They use M4 magazines so you can use literally hundreds of different magazines, and they're cheap. However don't worry about upgrading anything in your gun till later down the road.
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Archer
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Re: Bullpups - Decent starting point?

Post by Archer » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:48 pm

if you go the F2000 route, be aware that they are incompatible with polymer magazines.

The AUG's are a great option, but they aren't for everyone. highly suggest handling one first if you can, before you buy.

the Tavor is another good option, just stay away from the S&T ones as they are very very cheaply done and tend to not last very long.

I have a PTS magpul PDR that is a ton of fun, but it was a bit spendy to get my hands on and it has proprietary parts... but I wouldn't trade it for the world.
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Tank
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Re: Bullpups - Decent starting point?

Post by Tank » Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:32 pm

This might get a bit long so bare with me....

The biggest problem with bull-pups is that most of them use a two stage trigger (L85 & TAR 21 do not) that can be finicky.
If your budget is a max of $250, your option are going to pretty limited.
You mentioned the TAR 21...The S&T would fit your budget, but it's a pretty crappy gun. The Ares version is a much better gun however, it's a huge PITA to work on, and even used you'd be hard pressed to find one for less that $250.
They use a proprietary gearbox with mostly regular V2/V3 parts. To give you an idea of how much of a PITA servicing is... In the ARES version the gearbox must be opened to separate the hop-up unit from the gearbox (one of the dumbest design features I've ever seen). Also removing the gearbox (with attached hop-up & inner barrel) can only be done after disconnecting the trigger & selector linkages via removing tiny, hard to reach set screws (both brands have said linkages).

F2000 (G&G) - Uses modified V6 gearbox, most parts are pretty easy to get. Has mag compatibility issues (can only use hi-caps unless modifications are made) and they frequently have trigger issues (that pesky 2-stage causing problems).
You might find a used on in your price range.

L85 - (G&G, Army, or ICS) You might find a used one in your price range but it will probably take some serious searching. There are SOME mag compatibility issues but mostly you just can't use P-mags. The G&G and Army are EBB (ICS is not) I HIGHLY recommend disabling the Blow-Back as is ads wear & tear to the internals.
ICS, G&G and ARMY all use a proprietary gearbox (ARMY is a clone of the G&G). The G&G and ARMY also use a longer piston than normal as well as a sector gear with extra teeth. There are ways to replace those parts with more standard parts, but it isn't w/o issues, namely there needs to be a spacer added for correct AOE if converting to standard piston & sector gear.
ICS uses standard V2 or V3 parts for MOST of their gearbox internals (only tappet plate & nozzle are L85 specific).
If I were going to get (another) L85, I'd get the ICS and immediately replace the motor and wait for something to break before replacing anything else. (ICS' motors are shit IMHO)

PDR - Out of your budget so I won't get into it other than to say I hate it but that's primarily because I'm a gun nerd and that thing does not exist (and could not function with current technology) in the real world.

AUG - (TM, CA, JG) Probably your best overall bull-pup option. You can get a JG new well within your budget, which is good because AUGs use proprietary mags. You could also get a used TM or CA within your budget.
As has been mentioned by others the AUG uses a regular V3 gearbox, so parts are easy. AUG hop-ups are pretty easy to get too which is a good thing because, next to the folding vertical grip the hop-up is the one of the most commonly damaged parts. This however, is largely caused by the user(s) being too rough on it and not any problem with the hop-up itself. The AUG hop-up unit is not supported by the body of the gun as well as in most other guns. I've seen AUG users damage their hop-up by going prone and hitting the mag on the ground forcing it upward and damaging the hop-up. In a couple of cases I saw someone SMASH the mag into the gun while reloading, hard enough to crack the hop-up. If you're mindful of that you should have no issues on that front.
The folding vert grip WILL break if you use it, it's not a matter of IF but WHEN. My advice is the leave it folded up and don't monkey with it.
Now on to what is IMHO the worst thing about the AUG (other than the proprietary mags)...The 2-stage trigger. There is no selector switch, just a safety. You pull about 1/2 way for semi-auto & pull all the way for full-auto. This does NOT lend itself well to semi-auto only fire.
If you don't play in events where semi-auto only is a requirement then this is probably a non-issue.

P90 - (TM, CA, KA, CYMA, etc.) New or used you can find them within your budget. Standard V6 gearbox. Weird ergonomics, generally batter suited for those of smaller stature. HUGE, proprietary mags that require special mag pouches.
Stick with TM or CA proline. The others all have huge trigger switch problems and some hop-up problems. ALL P90 hi-caps suck. Some more than others, but they all feed erratically. You'll want to stick to standard or mid-caps for reliability.

I think that about covers it.
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Rekkon
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Re: Bullpups - Decent starting point?

Post by Rekkon » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:25 am

I love me bullpups, but as the previous posters outlined, you are hard pressed to find one where all the good qualities converge for a new player.

P90
I got mine in 2007 when finding mag pouches was a gigantic pain. Fortunately that is no longer the case. Find a physical store that will let you handle one to see if you like the ergonomics. Even better would be finding someone to loan you one for a game. Overall probably your best bet for a solid bullpup on a budget.

F2000
These things are bulky and heavy (at least my G&G is), which exacerbates the issues with slinging it (you either need to rig something yourself or buy a special adaptor). Again, try to handle one to see if you like the ergonomics. The midcap magazine incompatibility issue is easily fixed by a few minutes with a file or a few seconds with a dremel (to each magazine).

L85
I am a huge L85 fan, so I am probably biased, but of my rifle length bullpups, I like this one the best. They are rear-heavy, but that feels fine when the weight is up against your shoulder. The trigger mechanics can be iffy (I gave up on semi on my G&G), but OpFor Dan/Master TCAA has worked on both of mine, so there is at least one airsmith in the area who can handle repairs.

PDR
A great little gun, but certainly not cheap. You also have to experiment with different magazines because not all of them want to feed reliably.
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SGrog
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Re: Bullpups - Decent starting point?

Post by SGrog » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:49 pm

Thank you all for the awesome feedback!

I have been looking into airsoft for almost a year now (One more semester of college, then hopefully I can make some money!), and through that time I have been researching different platforms and venues, and the bullpup seems to stand out as a good starter gun, but also a fairly universal platform. You can get the longer barrel length which is great for more open fields, and longer ranges, while still having a relatively compact system that can work well in CQC situations.

The points brought up about maintenance was one I had not really thought about, especially the trigger package. I am willing to move up in the price bracket to get a better product (Rather buy one if it will cost less in the long run, even if it is more upfront).

I had not considered the Aug before, but it sounds like a great contender. I recently got to handle a Tar-21, and it felt pretty good, the weight was not as far back as I had imagined it to be, but compared to other M4's which were at least numbers wise similar, It felt very comfortable, and not as heavy out in front, which I could see as being advantageous. I do like it being able to take most M4 style magazines, which can bring down mag costs some.

Thank you again!

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Re: Bullpups - Decent starting point?

Post by Guges Mk3 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:41 am

Longer barrel does Not Mean Longer Range in Airsoft.

It's all about the velocity of the bb as it leaves the barrel and the amount of backspin.

Firearm Physics Does NOT apply and you should not think that it does for this "blowgun" sport.

340fps is 340 fps regardless if the barrel is 300mm long or 590mm long.
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

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