WE M4 Review and Discussion - Resurrected

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WE M4 Review and Discussion - Resurrected

Post by Jin » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:22 pm

The WA M4 has been out for quite a while and it's quite cool indeed that the TM SOPMOD M4 will be out in plenty of time for Christmas, but another option worth watching for you blowback M4 fans is the WE M4 Carbine.

It is officially available for preoder in local Taiwan shops now (no where online yet as far as I know) and going for a price of TWD 8000 - 11000 ($230 - 330 US). It will be released with green gas powered mags (spares are said to retail $40-$50 USD) and CO2 powered mags will be released shortly after the rifle comes to market.

The newest pictures of the WE M4 can be found here ---> http://picasaweb.google.com/kcyauwil/WE ... e2ndSample

And here's a separate picture of the hopup adjustment ---> http://picasaweb.google.com/kcyauwil/WE ... 4038477746


As you can see the internal design is very different from the WA M4, which is a good thing in my book as it means this model stands a good chance of being much more reliable than the WA M4. It looks to be almost a hybrid of modern and classic airsoft technology on the inside.
Another interesting thing is that the WE M4 will feature a convertible outer barrel than can unscrew into two pieces for a carbine length or a CQB-R length outer barrel. Current reports from Hong Kong shops are saying that WE has told them the M4s will also include 2 inner barrels as well. One carbine length and one CQB-R length to match the user's outer barrel preference.


Now before anyone says it will instantly fail since it's made by WE, please realize 2 things...

1) WE was not the original designer of this weapon, they just bought the design from a small airsoft custom shop called AFC and decided to mass produce it.

2) Even if it is a bit unreliable... it couldn't be worse than the WA M4, could it? :lol:



The WE M4 is set to hit online retailers by the end of the month and, as you can see in the pictures, will have no trademarks on the metal body. However, the relatively new company Socom Gear has contracted with WE to rebrand WE's M4 but with full trademarks on the body. The type of trademarks (Colt, KAC, etc.) is currently unknown.



So there you have it! Soon there will be another GBB M4 on the market. I had high hopes for the Western Arms M4 and high hopes for the Inokatsu MTW M4, but both let me down. Let's hope the third time is the charm :)
Last edited by Jin on Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Guges Mk3 » Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:42 pm

I wouldn't bet on it. Tolerances will have to be very tight to have "long term" reliability. We has never been known to have "tight tolerances".

I will let all assumptions pass me by ad wait for Jin-Roh to comment...since he is plugged in to the Taiwan Airsoft scene.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin-Roh » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:47 am

well, it's too early to make any comments...

There are video on airsoft eu so you guys can check it out

there are no markings whatsoever, and nobody knows the exact price yet. BUT people have gotten details saying that it'll be around 15000 NT (which is only slightly cheaper than WA)
and rumor has it also that markings will be available later. But at least it can be upgraded with real gun parts with no modifications needed ( to be confirmed)

with 12kg gas it shoots about 150 +/- m/s and about close to 800 round per minute (which is too hot for most airsoft team in taiwan...)
with 8kg...it'll be around 120 m/s i think...(can't confirm)

OH. There is another problem. The charging handle apparently breaks easily. Due to some design issue, if the charging handle isn't backed to the original position after charging, there's a risk of breaking it when you shoot. Some dude tried it out with a sample in the store and broke two charging handles.

Other than that....not much can be said just from the sample guns...

It's great to have all these companies making gas guns (there's also GHK making AKS74U blowback from Dboy body...that's looking good as well.)

BUT... I'm just going to wait and see who stays on top after this war is over.... Besides, it'll be awhile before gas guns will start appearing on the field
By the way, My buddy took his WA M4 to skirmish and well....despite that it's quite entertaining...It really is not an effective skirmish weapon (When up against AEG that is...)
It's not really accurate when shooting bbs. (imagine WA pistols on auto...) It's more like a tight shotty!
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:14 am

Thanks for the info Jin-Roh! Much appreciated!

And oh yeah, I totally forgot about the GHK AKS-74U!

It's available for pre-order at RA Tech right now for $400 with free shipping ----> http://www.ratech.com.tw/eng_ratech/pro ... rands.html
and proper bakelite style spare mags are soon to come at a price of $40 each ---> http://www.ratech.com.tw/eng_ratech/coming_soon.html

For those interested you can see a demo video including a chrono report and both semi and full auto firing here ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdrR5B_RmYE
So far the only complaint I could make about it from the videos is that it does not appear to have any kind of working bolt stop. Other than that it looks good and the internal design principle looks simple and relatively true to real steel Kalashnikov design.


On a side note, GHK is also making "fair price" WA M4 mags which should be out in the not too distant future. No idea on the price yet but I'm guessing they'll be around $40, same as their 74U mags.


Once again, thanks for the report Jin-Roh! I'm gonna wait to hear the initial reports on the WE M4 but if it turns out well than I may consider picking up one of the trademarked Socom Gear versions rather than a Marui SOPMOD M4 this holiday season. That high FPS is a wee bit scary, but hopefully WE will wise up and release a less powerful version when it actually comes to market.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by DFSM » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:22 am

The real AKs don't have a bolt stop, why would this one have it?
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:56 pm

Yes yes, I know, but you know what I mean! On a real AK the bolt doesn't keep cycling after the magazine runs out of bullets :lol:
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin-Roh » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:11 pm

Just out of curiousity ...

The WE M4 is basically a redesigned old JAC gas system...
so...can anybody explain why they died out aside from the fact that it needed external gas tank?

anyways, it'll be like mid november before anybody will have a decent review on this gun. . . . . so i guess everybody ..sit tight?
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:59 pm

Why did JAC die out?

Well... in the early 90s the Japanese economy experienced a massive recession. Not long before this happened JAC had invested a gigantic sum of money in non-airsoft related ventures like real estate and industrial sectors. When Japan fell into recession JAC was unable to survive the massive debt load they incurred from these outside ventures, so they sold off all their property and their airsoft company went under. Thus the fall of JAC, one of the most respected names in skirmishable classics.

But if what you're asking is why the BV and subsequent BM system never stood the test of time, outside of the need for external air, my best guess is that one of the few big name airsoft companies to survive the early 90s Japanese recession with money to spare for R&D was Tokyo Marui. They were mostly focused on electrics and when they did start producing modern GBB pistols they (along with Western Arms and Maruzen) dumped quite a bit of money into designing new systems to recapture interest in the airsoft market. Systems that produced greater blowback feel, greater accuracy, and most importantly conformed to the new Japanese laws that imposed FPS restrictions on how hard they fired and melting point restrictions on the materials they were made of.

Thus old systems were abandoned in favor of technological advancement (or new gimmicks in some cases) and conformation to the new Japanese airsoft laws. I can't say exactly when/how these laws came into effect, but if I recall correctly they were put into effect after someone successfully modified some type of Asahi (I think) rifle to fire real ammunition.



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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by fadedcorona » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:12 pm

so the mags have to be airtight? or can they use AEG mags?
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:54 pm

Both the WE M4 and GHK AKS-74U use standard modern gas pistol style mags, just on a larger scale. So no, they will not be AEG mag compatible. On the upside though you won't be paying Western Arms prices for these mags, they should be about $40 per mag. Standard gas pistol mag price despite their larger size :)
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Guges Mk3 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:54 am

With the track record WE has...they will be extermely gas inefficient.

It takes more then casting and welding a box with a valve on it to make it last a whole mag of bb's.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:02 am

This is true, WE does not have the best track record for gas efficiency. And considering the velocity these little beasts are shooting at I imagine they go through gas quite quickly.
On the other hand the mags are only 30rd mags (unlike WA's 50 rounders) so there won't be as many BBs to rattle off before the mag is empty, which gives it a bit better chance of being able to finish the mag on a single gas fill.

WE's overall track record is a bit sketchy at best, but I do have to keep reminding myself that this gun is not WE's design but rather AFC's design rebranded and mass produced. So who knows how it'll turn out... but I'm sure we'll find out in anywhere from a few weeks to a month or so when the first reviews start coming in :)


On a bit of a side note... I just gotta ask... Guges, what is your avatar a picture of? I've been looking at it for years now and I still have never been able to figure out exactly what I'm looking at! :lol:
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Guges Mk3 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:29 am

The GBBR is designed by AFC...but are the mags also designed by them or did WE design and make them?
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by bear » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:22 pm

I seriously lusted after one of these gas ARs , but I am left with the fact that durability and or efficiency make these a big question mark. I am not looking for a fight, I am simply saying I don't want to be the one who invested in a loadout to find that it is near to impossible to find replacement parts three years down the line.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Guges Mk3 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:21 pm

Then buy 2 of each...better yet...get three. :P

What's really surprising...the spare parts market came online for the WA M4 pretty quick. G&P got on it pretty fast...
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by bear » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:23 pm

I would like nothing more than to have these builds turn into the next knockoff craze, but it still bears the conclusion that ultimately it can't be as efficient as an AEG. Honestly, there appears to be absolutely nothing closer to real steel for the gun whore in all of us. With that said, I am currently incapable of accepting the current level of practicality that these units provide, so I guess if you have the means I am in total agreement with Guges.....buy 3...buy 5 then when one dies stick it in a box for parts.

Incidently, when you are on the field with your uber gbb m4 PLEASE let me shoot it....:lol:
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:09 am

Holy cow...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WkMz0ZXW3U

A new fairly long and well done preview video of the WE M4 from Airsoft Buddy. Shows filling the mag, gassing it up, firing both semi and full auto, and the basic takedown of the bolt system.

The "holy cow" is in regards to the recoil on this thing! When firing full auto with green gas I'd swear I was looking at someone firing a real M4 if I didn't know better. Having owned a WA M4 I can safely say that while the recoil was very pleasing (imagine a rifle version of the Marui Desert Eagle hard kick pistol on green gas) it was nothing like what the recoil looks like in this video of the WE M4.

The bolt system looks quite robust too, quite superior to WA's plastic hopup and loading nozzle that oh so easily break when a BB jams between them.

I know it's pretty early to start making judgments about this upcoming rifle, but color me impressed :)
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:50 am

I noticed there are two type of hand guards. Wonder why that is...from the ones laid out on the table and the demo one.

And the recoil is decent...but not quite real Jin. Was watching this video at work and an Army guy sitting behind me heard the racket. He marvelled at the progress Airsoft has made...but he said a real M4 would start pushing the shooter back and the gun would start moving off out of the camera view.

Let see what really comes out in November.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:12 am

Ahh I suppose you're right Guges. I just went and watched some videos of real M4s firing. While the WE does have the strongest blowback of any airsoft gun I've seen to date it still is a little lacking compared to a real M4. It's got the "shake, rattle, and roll" thing down but doesn't quite have the backward push that a real M4 would have.

You can see a little "herky-jerky'ness" in the bolt's motion when firing on full auto, which does indicate a little cool down. But we are talking about a modern GITM system GBB gun here, and I think pretty much any gas gun will have some cool down if you dump 30 rounds through it in under 2 seconds. Still though, didn't look too bad at all to me in comparison with the full auto gas SMGs on the market today.


I'm not sure I see what you're seeing with the handguards though. They all look the same to me, but maybe I'm missing something. On that note though I will be curious to see if the hand guard and pistol grip is built to AEG or real steel spec. I'm actually hoping a bit that they'll be AEG spec to make it a bit more economical to fit aftermarket pistol grips and foregrips. Well, the pistol grip would be fine being RS spec (RS pistol grips are cheap) but I do hope the foregrip is AEG spec.

Still interested in seeing what they chrono with the included CQB length outer & inner barrels too.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:15 am

He says its only 5lb of recoil pressure. That is how much back force one feels on a stock M4 Carbine.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:42 pm

Just a news update here...

A substantial amount of new info on the WE M4 has been released, with lots of pretty pictures too! ---> http://gasguns.info/forum/viewtopic.php ... &sk=t&sd=a

Here's the basic lowdown if you don't feel like clicking the link...

-- will be available next week (early Nov.)
-- priced: <USD400.00 (with one 30-rd magazine incl.)
-- spare mags: <USD30.00/pc
-- FPS : final production model shoots about 400 fps on green gas
-- CO2 mag will be available later (for European market only )
-- all measurements are RS-specs, pistol grip included
-- Authorized dealer: http://www.airsoftbuddy.com


WGC Shop says they'll have em in next week. And if the price point of under $400 USD is correct, well, you bet your sweet arse I'll be ordering one as soon as they become available. I was going to hold out for the Marui SOPMOD M4 but the blowback on this thing just looks like too much fun to resist. And since it'll come with a CQB-R length outer and inner barrel set as well that's just another plus, since I'd much rather have a CQB-R than a standard carbine length. For all that you get the price is just too good resist taking a risk on WE for the potential of reliable GBB M4 goodness with cheap mags-o-plenty :mrgreen:
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:30 am

Well, the WE M4 has been released! It is available on http://www.airsoftbuddy.com for $460 with free shipping... and I have already ordered one :mrgreen:

A few additional specs on it that I missed on the previous updates...

Full metal contruction
Receiver = aluminum
Bolt = steel
Internals = aluminum, steel, and brass. NO potmetal.


You can expect an initial review within a day or two after it arrives and long term updates on it's performance and reliability over the next 6 months, as I will be keeping this rifle for at least 6 months regardless of what problems may occur with it.

MCXL, I very much look forward to comparing my WE with your Inokatsu M4 once they arrive! :mrgreen:
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by fadedcorona » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:47 pm

Man guys and I have no money :( though 400ish isn't too bad. I guess I'll just wait for my tax return because also by then people will have ideas on their longevity.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by BCAT » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:36 pm

I've been really drooling over these. I want to do a long gun build with one of these. With a full stock, and G&P makes a XM110 outer barrel with rail set that looks amazing. Then with that inner barrel length you could hit 450+FPS then go semi auto only. oh the Instant trigger response I've been looking for. :twisted:
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:04 pm

Well, I got shipment confirmation and a tracking number from Airsoft Buddy today so my WE M4 is in the mail!

Also, for those who don't care about getting a CQB length barrel set (inner barrels are 6.03mm tightbore by the way) with the WE M4 you can put in a pre-order for one slightly cheaper from WGC shop that does not appear to come with an additional CQB length outer & inner barrel.

Here's the link ---> http://www.wgcshop.com/pcart/shopper.ph ... 1-A_srch_1
Price : $370 + shipping.

After shipping this could cost you $30 or $40 less than through Airsoft Buddy, but you'll have to wait a little while to get it since it's just a pre-order and as I said before it does not appear to come with the additional CQB length outer and inner barrel set.
On an odd note, WGC also reports the FPS to be much lower than Airsoft Buddy. WGC says 330 to 350 with 0.2g BBs and Top Gas, where as Airsoft Buddy reports 480 fps with Top Gas, 0.2g BBs, and the full carbine length inner barrel!

Wat?



Oh well, guess I'll find out the FPS of mine when it arrives in 3 or 4 days! Anyone got a chronograph I can borrow for a day? :)
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:21 pm

Here comes the gremlins...

From looking at Airsoft Buddy and their history, I mean look at their website...is that a case of oxymoronism? A communist themed capitalist website. I would believe WGC more.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:43 pm

I was thinkin' that was a bit funny too... the red army themed website selling goods to capitalist countries :lol:

But hey, looks like I found someone who will let me borrow a chronograph for a day to test the rifle after it arrives. I'll test it with the carbine length and CQB length inner barrels, both with propane and 134a gas, to get to the bottom of this FPS question!


Man... I sure hope this isn't going to leave me feeling the same way I felt after buying a WA M4. I just remember thinking, "$%&#! I should have bought a KWA M4! *&$@! $&^@!".
And that may very well happen again if this doesn't live up to the hype... But hey, someone has gotta be a guinea pig for this new toy and it might as well be the guy who spent the past 2 years or so in thread after thread complaining about the lack of gas blowback rifles :lol:
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin-Roh » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:29 pm

got some official pricing for these gas guns

WE M4 is 12,000 NT
GHK AKS74U is 9800 NT
Inokatsu M4 Sopmod is 26000 NT

that is the official price that's out.

both WE M4 and GHK are racing to have their guns out by this week. So we will have lots of review by next week. From some video of GHK AK shooting, there were still a lot of times that white gas blows out of the bolt carrier...

I think it's safe to say that WE will lower the prices later to compete with GHK...cause after people hearing that GHK is under 10000, they decided maybe AK is the way to go! :mrgreen:
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin-Roh » Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:02 am

Yo Jin

I had the chance on my Friday to test out both the WE M4 and GHK AK74U

In terms of blow-back feel , I think the GHK wins. WE M4's blow-back is definetly weaker than both WA and GHK.
In addition, GHK's AK is metal stock so i guess when the recoil hits you, it feels much better.
After shooting both guns, I like GHK better. (after shooting WE, my initial reaction: this sucks!)

There are already a few buyers claiming that the WE M4 bolt catch is weak, and that they have already broken it. WE is planning to come out with an all steel part for it i guess.
I'm sure there will also be a full delux version coming out soon (markings, steel parts?)


The GHK, although it shoots stronger and with a lower velocity (it is more game friendly) it is never the less made from a DBoyi body (and not the all steel version...)
The whole system is like a giant gas pistol.
In addition, the individual mags are selling for NT 1280 (i'm not sure if this is suggested price or what...)

http://www.wretch.cc/blog/bbgunworld/12483864

you can check the pics out ...



Both guns comes with a crappy card-board box with no pictures, just foam.
GHK has no instruction booklet while WE only comes with an letter sized picture instruction page (doesn't tell you a lot....)
I think for the price they're charging, they could do better, really.



i didn't get a chance to analyze these guns in detail so it is not much of a review, but i'm sure you'll have a better one when you get your gun.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:21 am

Thanks for that nice preview of things to come Jin-Roh!

At the moment my WE M4 has entered the US, cleared customs, and should arrive on monday. So you can expect a full initial review by mid week :)

Shame to hear that a few have broken bolt catches already, but the same happened to WA M4s when they first came out and fortunately a bolt catch is a very cheap part to replace. Even if I have to replace it with a bolt catch made out of high quality steel it still shouldn't be more than $30 I'd imagine. And if it does break I can always use the bolt catch disabling switch on the magazines to disable to bolt catch until I can get a suitable replacement.

Shame to hear the blowback is rather weak in comparison to the GHK AK but I'm certain it will be more pronounced than the blowback on the soon to come Marui SOPMOD M4, so I'll surely be happy with it in any case.


The GHK 74U does look very nice indeed, but for what I had in mind I really wanted the customization options than an M4 provides (specifically a CQB-R length model, which this will give me) so I chose it over the GHK AKS-74U simply for style reasons.
But I'm wondering, Jin-Roh, have you heard any rumors of a GBB MP5 floating around? I'd really love a blowback MP5, much more so than an M4 or AK, but I've yet to hear anything about a blowback MP5 other than G&G's TopTech MP5 in the works and the patent Marui filed for a blowback MP5 gearbox a year or so ago. Any news on the gas gun front?


Anyway, I should have my WE M4 on monday to expect to see an initial quality and firing review from me by mid week ^_^
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:51 pm

Well.... mine arrived this morning! :D

I'll have a full review up later tonight, but after firing about 500 rounds through mine there are a few initial comments I feel comfortable making about it before I do a full review...


1) External build quality is fantastic, far superior to any full metal AEG like G&P and others. The aluminum body is the most realistic feeling M4 body I've ever seen on an airsoft gun. All metal external parts look very real steel and feel high quality. The plastic forgrip, stock, and pistol grip all feel more like nylon fiber than plastic. VERY realistic. Zero wobble on the stock or foregrip either.


2) The internals appear very robust and smartly designed. No potmetal here, all steel brass, and aluminum. The CNC'd steel bolt weighs substantially less than the WA M4 bolt and feels much higher quality... I doubt you could ever break it even with years of CO2 use. The internal design seems like a very good hybrid of real steel and airsoft design. Very similar to real steel in the takedown but with a feeding and gas delivery system that is more practical for airsoft than the totally RS replicated WA system. The big solid parts and the lack of any tiny little easily breakable parts make the whole system seem very robust.


3) The magazine... oohh god! The magazine! Time to rethink everything you ever thought you knew about airsoft gas gun mags. This is the only airsoft gas gun mag I've ever seen that wasn't a heavy chunk of potmetal. It is extremely light weight (only a tiny bit heavier than an AEG mag) and I can't find any potmetal on the thing. The shell is lightweight and seems to be constructed like a standard AEG mag and I have no concerns about it's durability. Mag holds enough gas for 2 full mags worth of BBs no problem. There's very little in the way of cool down even if you dump a whole mag in one burst on full auto. Also nice, there is a switch on the top of the magazine that allows you to enable or disable the bolt catch as you please.
Like everyone else who has gotten a WE M4 my mag leaked badly right out of the box. But after spraying some silicone oil on the seals and shooting and refilling the mag with propane half a dozen times the leaks have completely gone away, no problems at all now.

All in all the mag is without a doubt the best designed airsoft gas gun mag I've ever seen. This mag will make you rethink everything you ever knew about airsoft gas gun mags. You'll be able to carry just as many of these mags into the field as you would AEG mags without feeling weighed down.


4) Speaking of propellant... the only problem I've had with my WE M4 so far is that it does not like to feed reliably on 134a gas. No problems at all with propane/green gas, but I have gotten quite a bit of non-feeding shots when I used 134a gas in it.


5) When it comes to actually shooting, this gun is a blast to shoot! The recoil is a wee bit less than that of the Western Arms M4, but such is to be expected due to it's solid full metal construction and steel bolt that likely dampens the recoil somewhat. Still though, the recoil is darn powerful and shakes the bejesus out of your arms when shooting. I highly doubt you could use airsoft grade optics on this gun for very long without them going haywire or just breaking completely. The recoil is strong enough that I'd say only real steel grade optics will be usable on this gun!


6) Lastly, the hopup is fully adjustable and after a little spray of silicone oil the hopup wheel adjusts quite smoothly on my WE M4. Other's have mentioned not being able to turn their hopup right out of the box, and I had the same problem, but a little spray of silicone oil cleared it right up and although stiff to adjust (meaning it won't come unset from the recoil when the gun is shooting) the hopup is fully adjustable.






I will have a full review up later tonight, but for now I feel very comfortable in saying that after my initial experience with my WE M4 I see no reason at all that anyone in their right mind would pay $500 to $1,000 for a Western Arms or Inokatsu M4 that is as far as I can tell of lesser quality in all respects.
This gun is just light years ahead of anything else WE has ever produced and at a price point of $340 for the gun and $30 for spare mags I am now confident that this will be the rifle that brings GBB back to the masses. :mrgreen:
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by fadedcorona » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:57 pm

Sweet. I like hearing that the mags aren't very heavy.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:04 pm

Sweet indeed! :D

With the Western Arms M4 I used to own I'd never dream of dropping the mag straight onto the ground when empty, it seemed like it would break very easily... and same goes for every gas pistol mag I've ever had too.
But these WE M4 mags are incredible in their quality and construction. I've been dropping this mag straight onto the floor after shooting all morning and I have zero concerns about this mag ever breaking if dropped onto the ground. It feels just like a high quality M4 AEG mag and weighs less than a fully loaded M4 hi-cap mag.

Best. Gas. Gun. Mag. EVER.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:54 pm

To update this thread, I got a chance to shoot my WE M4 a whole lot this afternoon and get used to the way it works. Shooting it has been a blast (it's ridiculously fun to shoot and brings a grin to my face every time) but there have been some problems. Here's a short list of the issues I've experienced after putting 1,000 rounds or so through the gun since I got it this morning...



1) Bolt stop broke with less than 500 rounds shot through it.

2) Gun does not feed reliably on 134a gas (lots of "no-feed" shots and some jams) so I've had to use green gas or propane only. No feeding issues of any kind with green gas or propane though, it works just fine on higher powered gases.

3) The mag was very leaky from the top valve right out of the box. A few sprays of silicone oil and a few fills of green gas fixed this problem though.

4) The fill valve on the bottom of the magazine is very finicky. The stem in the valve can get stuck and when that happens it will not hold gas, it just spews it right back out the fill valve as soon as you stop filling. This problem seems to come and go... sometimes the mag will hold gas fine when you fill it, other times it will not.

5) Once every 8 to 10 mags when I rack the charging handle and insert a fresh mag I'll pull the trigger and just hear a "click", no firing. This is because sometimes when you cock the gun it doesn't fully cock the hammer assembly and the firing pin doesn't get pulled back. To remedy this pull the charging handle all the way back and hold it back while reaching up inside the mag well and pushing the firing pin back until it "clicks" in place. After that you can insert your mag and shoot as normal.




Needless to say, there were quite a few problems. The weak bolt catch and wonky mag fill valve I somewhat expected, as every GBB M4 to hit the market so far has had the stock bolt catch fail in short order and needed an aftermarket steel bolt catch. And while 98% of this gun is light years ahead of anything WE has ever produced, WE does have a history of poorly made mag valves and it seems they stuck with their usual craptacular magazine valves for this gun.
Some of the other problems were rather unexpected though.

As of now I've contacted Airsoft Buddy about getting a replacement bolt catch, as mine seems to be the exception rather than the rule (there's 3 other WE M4 owners on other boards who have put waaaay more rounds through their WE M4s than I have and I'm the only one who had the bolt catch break). So hopefully Airsoft Buddy will be willing to send me a new bolt catch to replace my defective one. The gun still fires fine with the bolt catch broken, the bolt just doesn't lock back when the mag runs out of BBs.



At this point I'm not ready to say if the WE M4 is a "must buy" or "a work in progress" though. It's a helluva gun for the price and shooting it is a blast, but it has not been without it's problems. Only time will tell if these little problems persist and how they'll color my overall impression of the gun when it comes time to do a proper review, but for now I'll stick with saying...

"It's a blast to shoot and reasonably priced for what it is, and the magazine design is simply amazing, but it has not been without it's problems."
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin-Roh » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:10 am

hmmm

I'm glad you're enjoying your new toy Jin

Have you tested out the range yet? I heard that with full gas, the bbs fly upwards. Only after shooting about half mag does the trajectory becomes better?

But in any case, I think we should wait for further modified version later. I'm sure WE will come out with reinforced versions ...Probably steel reinforced with markings...


Either way, I'm sure this gun is fun for collecting and plinking. But for field use....hmmm need more upgrading.
In the heat of battle, can these gas guns with-stand hundreds of rounds?
And of course, there's no way a gas gun can be as accurate as an AEG ...These gas guns are more like gas shotties....good for CQB but at long ranges...you probably have to spray and pray.
And then there's the cold weather factor. But alas, this the fate of gas guns...
so....Don't think it'll be accepted with open-arms on the field yet.

I'm still sticking to marui's blow-back for practicality on the field. If I have extra dough to spend, maybe i'll get a gas...but that's for novelty.

And as for MP5 coming out.....well, it really depends on how well these gas guns are selling. If it's just a phase, then...I highly doubt you'll see any of these makers come out with an MP5 model...
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by beasthunter33 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:17 am

Dammit Jin, your making me want to get one....but my old SP still has me with a bad taste in my mouth, I shall see how this fares.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin-Roh » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:00 am

Here's a poor sap with his broken charging handle

Image


Image



jeez guys, take it easy on these guns...they're just toys! :roll:
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:13 am

That's metal fatigue!

Considering that the part is not a stress part...that is some pretty crappy casting...oh wait it's WE :P

I may regret that later...

Same thing happened with the first G&P Metal bodies, except it happened on the stock tube. Typical of cheap casting...not that I am seeing some nice non-marketing oriented picts...the build is really not that spectacular...
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:20 am

Good news!

I heard back from Airsoft Buddy (and they publicly posted this on Arnies Airsoft as well) and they said that WE has gotten many complaints about broken bolt catches so they are currently doing a production run of solid steel bolt catches and will have them available soon. As soon as they are done I will be sent one free of charge :D


In the meantime, here's some pics of my WE M4 in it's current configuration. I changed out the full carbine length inner barrel for the included 6.03mm tightbore CQB length inner barrel and unscrewed the carbine length barrel extension (and swapped over the flashider) for a CQB length barrel. Also added a C-More Tactical sight and Magpul PTS Ranger Plate to the mag (and yes, you can fill the mag with gas with the Ranger plate on!).


Image

Image

Image

Image


It was very nice that WE decided to make the outer barrel unscrew into 2 pieces so you can switch between a carbine length or CQB length outer barrel in seconds. Worth noting though is that when changing the out the inner barrel (swapping carbine length for CQB length) I did put a small o-ring around the outside of the inner barrel to center it at the end of the outer barrel, as it tended to want to drift down a bit without the o-ring to center it.

I haven't had a chance to chrono it with the CQB length inner barrel yet but my best guess is that it will shoot around 350 fps on green gas / propane with the CQB length inner barrel. Chrono reports from owners using the full carbine length inner barrel are reporting 480 to 500 fps on green gas and 350 on 134a gas, so I'm thinking the sizable reduction in barrel length should put it right around 350 with green gas and maybe 280 or so on 134a.

Hopefully I'll be able to borrow a chronograph soon to get some proper readings from it.


Right now though I'm just really glad that WE is going to be sending me a full steel bolt catch to replace the broken stock one! I'm sure glad there are some airsoft companies out there that actually listen to their customer's feedback and act promptly on it to remedy problems. This is a great change of pace from what we usually see in the airsoft market!
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:27 am

Jin,

Of all the things you buy, what you need is a Chrono. You drop $400.00 on a gun each week and you can't buy a good chrono for $100.00??? You can charge people to use it... :P

Also G&G was quick to respond to defects in their AEG's at the beginning, remember all the tappet plate issues and G&G sent out new ones and then the piston issues and they sent out new ones...
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:31 pm

I got a PM this morning asking me what my feelings were on a personal level about the three gas blowback M4s currently on the market. And if I was to compare them and choose one, which would I choose.
Having owned a WA M4 and a WE M4, here is my response to the great "What am best GBB rifle!?" question...


So far, despite the initial problems I've had with the WE, if I was to choose 1 of the 3 GBB rifles on the market I'd go with the WE.

It has not been problem free since I got it, but the problems I've experienced have been the same or less severe than the WA had. The bolt catch breaking was somewhat expected and I'll be getting an all steel replacement from Airsoft Buddy as soon as their production is complete.

And the magazine valve issue, well, it's working fine for now and magazine valves are fairly cheap to replace if it does go out permanently. Besides, WE M4 mags are $30 each and aside from the slightly wonky fill valve they are just infinitely nicer than the $115 each WA or Inokatsu M4 mags. WE M4 mags really feel like AEG mags and weigh less than a fully loaded hi-cap. They feel durable and you feel like you could really bang them around without worrying about breakage... in other words, you could treat them like AEG mags on the field.

The WA/Inokatsu mags on the other hand are giant heavy chunks of pot metal that are fragile as hell, ridiculously expensive, and so heavy it would get uncomfortable carrying more than 2 spares onto the field. With the WE mags you could carry as many mags as you would normally carry in AEG mags and not feel weighed down by them.



Externally the construction of the WE M4 is a helluva lot nicer than the WA M4 and at a price that's about 1/3 that of the high end Inokatsu. Internally speaking I think the WE has a much better design as well. The brass tube that runs through the bolt system means that the BBs are fed directly from the mag into the narrow tube and into the hopup. Meaning there are no opportunities for jams that are so common with with the WA M4. I think in the long run the WE will prove to be a vastly more reliable and skirmishable weapon that the WA or Inokatsu options due to it's superior internal system.

Also, the internals of the WE are much larger and fewer in number than the WA or Inokatsu systems. Bigger stronger parts and a lot less of them means there are less things that can go wrong in the long run. The hopup system for the WE M4 is much better designed that the other GBB M4 options as well. Very simple, just a few big solid chunks of brass. Nothing to break, no small parts or o-rings to fiddle with. Taking apart and putting back together the hopup properly on the WA M4 is nothing short of a nightmare that will consume hours of your life and if you don't do it absolutely perfectly the gun will do nothing but jam when you try to fire it.

Not to mention that the WA M4 needs a new hopup and inner barrel right out of the box to be even semi-reliable (I recommend the PGC hopup & standard AEG inner barrel)... and even then it won't shoot 1/5th as reliably as the WE M4.




So how do I feel about the three gas blowback M4s currently on the market?

1) The WA is incredibly overpriced and ridiculously unreliable (an Alpha release pretty much). The mags are insanely priced and very poorly made as well.

2) The Inokatsu is just insanely over priced and based on WA's severely flawed internal design. It uses the same insanely priced and poorly made mags.

3) The WE M4 has a few little issues, but is very reasonably priced and the internal design is far superior to the other GBB M4s on the market. The only things that could really use improvement are the bolt catch (which is already being done) and the magazine fill valves. The magazines are very reasonably priced and IMHO the best gas blowback mags I've ever seen due to their extremely light weight and solid construction.




If I was to choose to buy another GBB M4 right now, I'd buy a WE hands down.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by MCXL » Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:11 pm

Jin, how can you speak of the quality of Inokatsu mags? They aren't out yet.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Marsden Hand » Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:05 pm

Or for that matter speak of the quality of a stock WA m4? Wasn't the one you received used and tinkered with before you even got it?

Kinda defeats the purpose of doing reviews on non-stock weapons. I would like to see a quality review of this product in its bare stock form, no change out with tightbores, hop-up units or ect. Stock weapon vs. stock weapon.

I'm also shocked to see in almost every "partial" review of the gun, the variation in FPS levels of the gun. From the video reviews of chrono'ing I saw, there was over a 100fps spread in fps. With a pause between each shot. This just shows me that this weapon is much more of a gimmick then a reliable skirmishing device.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by fadedcorona » Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:36 pm

"It's not a Gimmick! Its real science!" j/k. Either way. for me that fact that mags are lighter, alone make me hopeful. I had a KSC TMP and 4 mags... man, unless they were in a vest on your body they'd swing around like mad if you'd try and run, not to mention the overall weight.
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:03 pm

MCXL : Inokatsu M4 uses Western Arms M4 mags, therefore the mags are awful. At this point Inokatsu's in house mags are nothing more than vaporware, and given Inokatsu's track record of announcing things and then never releasing them I wouldn't be surprised if their mags never see the light of day. So for now at least, the Inokatsu M4 uses aweful and horribly over priced mags.


Marsden Hand : Let me make one thing very clear... the Western Arms M4 cannot function for more than a few hundred (or a thousand at most) rounds without having internal parts "upgraded". The WA M4 is by all definitions an Alpha release, and while I did buy mine lightly used and "upgraded" it had only had 200 rounds through it and the only internal part that was changed out was the hopup unit... which breaks on roughly 19 out of 20 WA M4s within the first few hundred rounds and is absolutely necessary to replace.

Also, my WE M4 is stock. If you were paying attention to previous posts you would have known that the first few hundred WE M4s released came with both a carbine length and CQB length inner barrel set. I'm just using the CQB length barrel set in mine currently.





In regards to the broken charging handle pictured above, I will admit that as nice as the body, barrel, flashider, buffer tube, magazine, etc. seem to be made the charging handle does feel really thin and flimsy. So I really wouldn't be surprised if the charging handle does break at some point. Based on the pics I've seen of real steel charging handles they look to be the same design and shape so they might fit, but I wouldn't be able to tell unless I had a RS charging handle around (which unfortunately I don't).



On a different note, I did have a chance to put another 600 rounds or so through my WE M4 this afternoon (I just can't stop shooting it, even without the bolt catch it's sooooo much fun to shoot! :D ) and I have some accuracy info and chrono tests to report.

The most range I have indoors to test the gun is 40 feet, so that's what all my shooting tests are done at...

At 40 feet, using 0.2g BBs and propane with the CQB length inner barrel installed, on semi-auto this gun can hit a cigarette butt 8 times out of 10. Mind you I am using my C-More red dot for precision shooting to assure that I'm aiming at the exact same spot every time.
But with the aid of optics being able to hit a cigarette butt 8 times out of 10 at 40 feet is very very good... right on par with my old Marui VSR-10 G-Spec heavily upgraded with full Laylax internals.

So accuracy on semi-auto is fantastic! I can certainly see this gun being a viable sniper platform if converted to semi-auto only. The 10 shots I made were in rapid succession too, just allowing enough time to re-align my red dot to the target after every shot. So not much in the way of cool down to affect accuracy.


Full auto on the other hand is a whole different matter. When you switch to full auto and fire in bursts of 5 to 6 shots you end up with a hit pattern spread about the size of a soft ball at 40 feet. When firing in 5 to 6 round bursts you also get 3 to 4 inches of muzzle climb (depending on how tightly you are gripping the gun) at 40 feet.
So due to the tremendous recoil the groupings on full auto are pretty large and shots drift up a bit, but you should still have no problems taking out man sized targets at longer ranges since the close range groupings aren't too huge.



For the chronograph report I'm chronoing using the CQB length inner barrel and KSC 0.2g BBs, and propane.

I filled the mag with gas, allowed 15 minutes for it to come to room temperature (76°F), and then shot 2 full mags of BBs through the gun allowing roughly 5 to 7 seconds between shots with the exception of the time when I stopped to refill the magazine with another 30 BBs, which was about a 15 second break.

With propane the high FPS was 436 and the low was 395, the low being the last 2 shots fired at the end of the second mag. The first mag worth of BBs (30 shots) were all between 425 and 435. A deviation of 10 FPS, which isn't is quite good for a gas gun firing 30 rounds in relatively rapid succession. The last half of the test (the second mag fill of BBs) gradually dropped down by a few FPS every couple of shots until it reached it's low point of 395 FPS for the last two shots.
So on propane, even with the short CQB length inner barrel, it's still too hot for local outdoor skirmish site rules by a tiny margin.


I tried chronoing with 134a gas too but unfortunately 134a gas does not provide enough power to push the bolt back far enough to chamber the next round, so between not being able to fire more than 1 shot without having to manually cock the gun to chamber the next round and some issues I was having with the chrono I borrowed (lots of error messages, not reading shots) I decided not to chrono with 134a. No point anyway since 134a wouldn't move the bolt back far enough to chamber the next round.

Perhaps with a weaker recoil spring and a lighter bolt set 134a would work, but in stock form I think this gun is suitable only for use with green gas / propane.




I have also figured out what's going on with the magazine's fill valve not holding gas sometimes. Maybe once every 10 fills or so you'll try to fill the magazine with gas and all the gas will just spew back out the fill valve as soon as you remove the nozzle of the gas can from the valve.
What is happening here is that the stem inside the valve that allows gas in but prevents it from going out gets stuck in the open position so the valve effectively becomes a 2 way valve instead of a 1 way like it should.

To remedy this just take a tiny screw driver (eye glass sized) and poke bottom of the valve in the area surrounding the center fill point to un-stick the valve stem. Or alternately if you don't have a tiny screw driver around just give the mag a few good whacks against the side of your boot and that should do the trick as well.

In my whole afternoon of shooting (about 600 rounds, 20 mags worth of BBs or 10 gas fills if you rather) I only had the valve stem get stuck once, so it wasn't too common of a problem and was easily fixed.



All in all it was a great afternoon of shooting and I think once I get a steel bolt catch I will be 95% happy with my WE M4. The other 5% I'd need to be 100% happy is to find a way to make it shoot under the local FPS limits with propane, which if nothing else I'm sure I'll be able to do by shortening the inner barrel at some point. For now though I'm just happy to target shoot with it around the house.

I've said it a dozen times already but...

"Man is this thing ever fun to shoot!" :D
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Guges Mk3
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:07 pm

JIn,

You never had a stock WA M4, you had one that was sold to you in a modded form...

In stock form wiht 134a, my WA m4 that I tested went 1000 rounds without blowing a part...can't say that about your WE can you?

You have to be a bit more objective and can't favor one item because you "own" it.

BTW...I am getting some WE's for eval.

And I also say I have not have the WA M4 long enough to give it a "long term" evaluation.
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

Don't fear the gun...fear the one that's wielding it!

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Jin
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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:36 pm

The fact that I never had a stock WA is beside the point, I've done my home work. I've followed all 80 pages of the Western Arms M4 thread and I have only seen 1 person out of the at least two dozen people who have bought a WA M4 and posted about it in that thread not have their hopup fail in short order. I suppose that number now rises to 2 people since I have to include you as well Guges.

And yes, I did have a very very bad experience with the WA M4 that may have tinted my view of it more than a bit... but IMHO the Western Arms M4 is a total POS that is not worth anyone's money. And I say that not just from my own experiences but from the experiences I've seen dozens of people have with it in 80 pages of the WA M4 thread on Arnies. I wouldn't wish ownership of that gun on my worst enemy... if I had a worst enemy that is :lol:


While the WE has had a few problems so far I still can confidently say that it is a far superior gun to the abysmal failure of a gun that Western Arms produced. Did you ever think you'd see the day when WE produced a product superior to Western Arms? I sure didn't... but hey, times change, companies change. And that's a good thing I think :)


I look forward to your evaluation of the WE M4 as well Guges! Are you getting the 480 to 500 fps Taiwan version like I have or the 350 fps export version?
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Every once in a while, when they aren't getting incinerated in lava, crushed under rock slides, or devoured by dragons, goblins experience moments of unmitigated glory in battle.

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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Jin-Roh » Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:18 pm

Guges Mk3 wrote:Jin,

Of all the things you buy, what you need is a Chrono. You drop $400.00 on a gun each week and you can't buy a good chrono for $100.00??? You can charge people to use it... :P


Haha, that is funny!

I think both GHK and WE went for the "average joe" shooters market. Althoughh I still think it can be a bit cheaper.
as for WA, it was never meant for serious skirmishing. It was always more for the collector. So I don't think it's fair to compare the two.

Inokatsu on the other hand, is just a tailored for us asians who can't own a real fire-arm. They have no originality and way over priced. Plus, you don't even get a carry handle or a mag! Heck, only now are people from the first batch getting their hop-up unit....SO SAD.
git some! Git Some!! GIT SOME!!!

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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:52 pm

Not sure which model..I am trying to order 3, but not through Airsoft Buddy.
I rather use a "nightmare" that shoots like a dream over something that looks like a "dream" but shoots like a nightmare.

Don't fear the gun...fear the one that's wielding it!

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Re: WE M4 Carbine GBB

Post by Marsden Hand » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:16 pm

Jin wrote:
Marsden Hand : Let me make one thing very clear... the Western Arms M4 cannot function for more than a few hundred (or a thousand at most) rounds without having internal parts "upgraded". The WA M4 is by all definitions an Alpha release, and while I did buy mine lightly used and "upgraded" it had only had 200 rounds through it and the only internal part that was changed out was the hopup unit... which breaks on roughly 19 out of 20 WA M4s within the first few hundred rounds and is absolutely necessary to replace.

Also, my WE M4 is stock. If you were paying attention to previous posts you would have known that the first few hundred WE M4s released came with both a carbine length and CQB length inner barrel set. I'm just using the CQB length barrel set in mine currently.
While the thinking may be "OMG WE's way better then WA!" remember they didn't even design the system in the gun. They just are the wholesaler.

As Guges said, you didn't receive a stock WA m4. But regardless, yes I was reading, and as I mentioned, review of the gun in the STOCK M4 length barrel. Regardless of if it comes with the CQB front end. A good review would have taken chrono results with both, as a slightly longer barrel can greatly increase the fps in a gas gun.

I don't like any of the gbb's M4's, but I just want a good, concise review and not a bashing.

Wonder how long before this one is for sale :P
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