Western Arms M4A1 M4CQBR

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Western Arms M4A1 M4CQBR

Post by Ozzy » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:00 am

http://redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airso ... odID=24491

interesting...I think full auto is gunna suck, but the rest looks kinda cool. Guges? Tank? Mac?
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Jin » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:49 am

Mmmm, tasty! :)

I've been waiting a long time for this one to come out, but as much as I'd like to buy one I think it's just a bit too expensive for my tastes. I'm sure it's going to be quite a fun and decently reliable gun (with hopefully a lot of aftermarket support) but the price is the killer for me. Had they made it $300 I would have been all over it, but that's just too much money for a toy BB flinger if you ask me.
And yeah, I know production costs in Japan are ridiculously high so the price is somewhat validated in that regard, but still...
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Ozzy » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:27 am

Mags are gunna cost a grip + I wonder how stable the fps will be.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by fadedcorona » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:38 pm

Yeah, IF the Mags only hold 50 rounds, They should be able to hold allot of gas, those mags are very large compared to the typical GBB. I would just be worried of parts breaking. Spending 600 on a gun you can use is one thing, but 600 on a paper weight, and a big one at that, is another. Maybe I am a pessimist but I'd also be worried about the bolt release wearing out, like the slide locks on many guns. Either way I am excited to see more gas guns. ..I wonder how much mags will cost.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Wolfwood » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:16 pm

Won't these need to be designed for less than 320 FPS /w .20s? It'll be interesting to see if this will be able to handle green gas long term.

Pretty cool, though
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by beasthunter33 » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:07 pm

Redwolf has a video of them using GG and getting about 378FPS. Not sure on the weight of BBs though, I would assume .2gs.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Wolfwood » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:17 pm

I don't care about the 100th BB.

Will it still shoot the 30,000th at 378FPS? Or will it have exploded already.....
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Blackcat » Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:27 pm

I wonder how quickly fps falls in full auto. You'd really have to get used to the burst, pause......burst technique with a gas gun like this, wouldn't you? Or is the drop not that significant?
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Royoken » Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:40 pm

Mags only hold 50 rounds right?

How much of a FPS drop would you expect on a 50rnd burst before you swapped the mag out for a new warm mag?
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by skunksquatch » Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:41 pm

I haven't been able to get an answer from my supplier yet on either price or availability of mags seperately, but the rumor mill put the mags at $48USD HK price each. Add $10-$12 for shipping to get each one of them here.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Ozzy » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:54 pm

:| as if prices on merchandise here in the states ain't high enough already...jeez. Ima have to rob a bank or hold Tony Starks for ransom if I want to get this gun. Anyone want to pull a HEAT bank robbery with me to fund their Airsoft projects?

On another note...I think the cool down factor will only play a big factor once the outside temp gets lower in the fall/winter season or if you spit out all 50 rounds all at once, other than that...should be good on semi. Nifty gun really...just does'nt seem practical for the average airsoft skirmish tho and I'd hate to lose a mag(s).

:shock: ...wait...I forgot about gas consumption.

Dude...lets say the player rolls out with an average of ...wot? 10 mags? that's alot of green gas you gotta invest in.

:( I no want nao
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by DFSM » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:38 pm

Ozzy wrote:Dude...lets say the player rolls out with an average of ...wot? 10 mags? that's alot of green gas you gotta invest in.
10 heavy mags and only holding 500 rounds, sounds awesome...
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:56 pm

It is a better training alternative to the PTW.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Jin » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:06 pm

DFSM wrote: 10 heavy mags and only holding 500 rounds, sounds awesome...
And at a cost of $1,200 for the whole shebang.... yow :|


Guges Mk3 wrote:It is a better training alternative to the PTW.
Agreed, and therein lies it's usefulness methinks :)
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by bikemancs » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:07 pm

Guges Mk3 wrote:It is a better training alternative to the PTW.
That's just what I was thinking.

These will probably fall in a similar category as the Systema, used for more realistic training rather than casual skirmishing like we do.

It looks pretty cool, I like the idea of the gas in the mags, rather than having it corded to my back like a paintball marker.

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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by fadedcorona » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:38 pm

yeah, also think of how heavy the mags must be. They'd be less toy-like than an AEG mag.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Shodan » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:15 am

I like it a lot, but they need a heavier bolt spring. It still kind has that GBB, the-slide-moves-slightly-slower-than-the-real-thing problem, but whatever. It might kill FPS a little, but with a little gun like that, i think you'd want to use it indoors anyway.

If they made a reliable, full sized M4/M16, this could be a cheaper alternative to the Systema.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by MCXL » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:16 am

That wouldn't work, or rather, it would be a ill advised idea.

The more spring you got the more energy is needed too push the spring back, that translates into worse gas efficiency. That translates into cool down, that leads to not finishing your mag, that leads to world destruction.

The other part, is it doesn't have a locking bolt mechanism like the real steel. Because of that if the bolt moved at the same speed as the real one its fire rate would be measurably higher. As is, it's fire rate seems about rite for replica use.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Jin-Roh » Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:27 am

As far as hearing people's reviews.... It can finish 50 rounds with no problem. And I hear the blowback is strong enough to hurt your shoulders.

However, the price of the gun and the mag is way too steep for a plastic. And ... some of WA's M4's parts cannot fit real gun parts nor AEG parts. Example....the grip, the dust cover (can fit, but won't close), mag catch, and charging handle.
You can check it out on Guarder's website. Only in chinese, but lots of pictures.

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so i guess if you want to modify it to full metal, you'll have to wait for companies like G&P to make it (rumor is, they're already making the body)

To have a full metal WA M4.......would probably cost around almost to a systema ptw.... too rich for my blood.......
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Ozzy » Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:00 am

And I hear the blowback is strong enough to hurt your shoulders.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Shodan » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:51 pm

MCXL wrote:That wouldn't work, or rather, it would be a ill advised idea.

The more spring you got the more energy is needed too push the spring back, that translates into worse gas efficiency. That translates into cool down, that leads to not finishing your mag, that leads to world destruction.

The other part, is it doesn't have a locking bolt mechanism like the real steel. Because of that if the bolt moved at the same speed as the real one its fire rate would be measurably higher. As is, it's fire rate seems about rite for replica use.
True, but that magazine is pretty big, compared to a pistol mag. There might be cooling issues, sure, but with such a big magazine, there's probibly some wiggle room.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Jin » Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:40 pm

Hmm... I just had an odd thought... if only the inner barrel and front end were AEG compatible.

You know how a gas gun's FPS increases dramatically when the barrel becomes longer? Imagine doing a M16A4/M203 conversion to this thing! :twisted: 550 to 750 FPS on green with a grenade launcher backup... yeah, I'd pretty much $%@# my pants if I was on the receiving end of that. It wouldn't be at all skirmishable due to the high FPS, but it would be pretty sweet none the less :)
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Guges Mk3 » Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:03 pm

The GBB are available still...though some of my sources have already sold out. However, the spare mags are non-existant.

No one has spares...
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Guges Mk3 » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:15 pm

These thingss are selling like hotcakes in HK. I will be getting one for eval purposes...but the spare mags does not exist.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Faust » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:37 pm

Jin wrote:Hmm... I just had an odd thought... if only the inner barrel and front end were AEG compatible.

You know how a gas gun's FPS increases dramatically when the barrel becomes longer? Imagine doing a M16A4/M203 conversion to this thing! :twisted: 550 to 750 FPS on green with a grenade launcher backup... yeah, I'd pretty much $%@# my pants if I was on the receiving end of that. It wouldn't be at all skirmishable due to the high FPS, but it would be pretty sweet none the less :)
More or less.

The reason why the gas guns FPS increases dramatically when the barrel length increases is because the gas has more time to exert force upon the BB; however as the gas increases volume more and more as the BB travels down the barrel, but the gas pressure decreases and the gas's volume increases (pushes less and less upon the BB). Therefore, with regards to increasing barrel length in gas guns, you will reach a point of diminishing returns.

So, there might still be a rather dramatic increase with an extra 6 inches of barrel, however it might not be as much as your thinking...

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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by psionics » Thu May 01, 2008 6:57 am

airsoft gi has them in now I noticed.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu May 01, 2008 3:12 pm

Yeah at over $100.00 for what I can get it for...and with vandalism on the sides for US sales too...plus they don't have spare mags either...
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Ozzy » Thu May 01, 2008 3:23 pm

Are you sayin that you can get one cheaper and also have spare mags?
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu May 01, 2008 6:21 pm

Yes and no.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by fizman1 » Wed May 14, 2008 4:26 pm

There are spare mags on boomarms now. javascript:large('http://www.boomarms.com/sc/viewproductd ... uctID=2237') There expensive is the bad part but if you realy want realizm then go fot it!

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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Guges Mk3 » Wed May 14, 2008 5:03 pm

$108.00 for the mag? That is stupid! They are trying to milk the early adopters....I can get them for far less if i wait for my suppliers in HK.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by bonesaw » Tue May 20, 2008 2:00 pm

pre-orders are on redwolf now for $105 a mag. http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/a ... odID=24649

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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Guges Mk3 » Tue May 20, 2008 11:21 pm

Image

Crappy eBay hosting...

No barrel wobble.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Jin » Tue May 20, 2008 11:27 pm

Looks quite tasty Guges! 8)

I'll be interested to hear what you think of the recoil, as others have found it rather impressive. If you've ever had the chance to shoot one of those KWC CO2 Mini UZIs I'd really like to hear how you think the recoil from the blowback on the WA M4 compares to the UZI... since as far as I know that KWC UZI is the hardest kicking stock GITM style GBB that's ever been produced.

And yeah, wow... $100+ for a single mag? That's just craziness! $60 or even $70 I could understand, but $100+ is just brutal rape on the part of the retailers without even the common decency to use a little lube.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Guges Mk3 » Wed May 21, 2008 1:10 am

I need to get more gas tomorrow...but i can tell you this $100.00 is retail for the mags. I have found them for almost $40.00 off...if they had any stock.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Ozzy » Wed May 21, 2008 12:49 pm

Why are mags that expensive? Do they just set the price that way so they can bleed the custermor dry? Or does this mag really cost that much to make?
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Guges Mk3 » Wed May 21, 2008 1:48 pm

Its an entire gas mag...very much like a gbb mag...though a lot bigger. This GBB will be a primary for many...how else to make money other then to jack up the price of the mags.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Ozzy » Wed May 21, 2008 1:59 pm

go figure.

How much can you get mags for Guges?
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Cotton » Mon May 26, 2008 12:54 pm

So Guges, few standard Q's for you:

What's it crono at?
Hows the cooldown effect on full auto?
Does it have decent range?
Do you think it's skirmish worthy for a guy used to playing with midcaps?

I initially scoffed at the price, but IDK I've been thinking about getting one more and more...
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Guges Mk3 » Mon May 26, 2008 1:46 pm

Forget the PTW!

Velocity is very good and accuracy is on par with a TM AEG.

I am using green gas and getting 345fps. More then decent for any skirmisher.

Cool down is not an issue if you let the mags warm up with after every fifty shots. I tried to get it to stop working with cool down effects and it only happened when I loaded 50, fired it off in FA, loaded another 50, fired in FA, loaded another 50 and then it started to show noticeable velocity drop. Granted my ambient temps around here are in the high 70's when I did the test. The part that cools down is the front of the mag...so I am surmising they took a pistol dimension magazine and slipped in a rifle magazine shell.

This GBB has the BEST simulated recoil ever for an Airsoft gun. Far better then the twitchy Maruzen MP5K.

Also here are the biggies for you RS nuts.

If the bolt is back you need to use the bolt release to send the bolt forward to load a round. If not the charging handle works.

On the last round...the bolt LOCKS back!

No wonder why this gun is so hard to get in Asia.

I have a youtube video of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3yx0p9EfK4

As for a guy that normally plays with Midcaps...sure...you will play better with this AEG. Since you have only half the shots of say a 100 round Mid.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by DFSM » Mon May 26, 2008 1:55 pm

That looks awesome. I'll have to get one when the mags are a more reasonable price.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Guges Mk3 » Mon May 26, 2008 2:03 pm

Also...this being a "gas" gun. You can get cheap FPS increase with a longer barrel. Though...only thing out there now is just longer cosmetic parts. Someone will make a longer barrel and then...oh yeah high 300's with the same working mechanism.

Other notes:

For a Glass Fiber body...it is rock solid. Yes some purists want METAL. But WA is not going to make any metal for it and the machining costs will make a Metal body very expensive. Also the thing is pretty heavy already. Each mag weighs in at over 1 lb loaded and the gun itself weighs in at over 5lbs.

Remember this thing is made by WA...in stock form...it's very reliable and far better then say a Maruzen SMG GBB.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Jin » Mon May 26, 2008 2:07 pm

Oohh yeah! If they just weren't so expensive... but then again, the more I think about it the more reasonable the price seems for what it is. And let us not forgot in the list of real steel features that the forward assist actually works just like it would on a real steel M4 to make sure the round is properly seated! The only other airsoft M4 style gun to have a forward assist that does anything at all is the ICS M4 series, in which the forward assist releases the spring to make sure it's decompressed for post-shooting storage.
Also, almost all the internals in the firing mechanism (with the exception of a few bits of the bolt itself) are exact duplicates of a real steel M4's firing system. Mind you the dimensions of some of the little bits are a little off to make it harder to swap out real steel firing parts, but they all look like and perform the same function as the real steel does.

So yeah... for what it is, it may very well be worth the price :) Although I'd still suggest running it on 134a or duster gas to keep things in good working order longer, since Japanese guns are never really spec'd for Green Gas.


I'm still hoping that the Tanio Koba C8 and mags will be less expensive than the WA M4, spec'd for Green Gas, and just as reliable... but I can't think of any other time in airsoft history when TK produced a superior product to WA, so I'm not holding my breath on this one :roll:


Hmm... $550 for the M4 with a spare mag from Guges? There may be one of these in my not too distant future...
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Ozzy » Mon May 26, 2008 4:19 pm

I read the bolt release button is prone to damage from wear... The picture did'nt look too good. The cool down factor was wot I was worried about, if firing 3 mags in the row cools it down that bad, seems like it would pose a problem later on. Does this mean this gun is essentially capable of being dunked in water and still function? Gir's amphibious assault may now be possible.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Guges Mk3 » Mon May 26, 2008 4:44 pm

The bolt release button seems to be made of a "softer" metal. But, give it time...someone will cast a piece in a harder alloy. It almost looks like a real steel bolt release would work...hmm. Do I have to buy a freaking .223 for real now?

Aand this being a gas airsoft gun...yes...you can do real amphibious assaults...though if you get the barrel wet...you will have issues with accuracy.

As for the mag cool down issue...I would hope one has more then 1 mag to use on the field.

I say give it 10 months...we will see some more bits and parts made or adapted to this GBB airsoft rifle.

Hmmm...wish I had a Gigant...I would see if I could do a barrel swap between the two.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Shodan » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:43 am

Sorry to necro, but the WA M4A1 is out.

http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/a ... odID=24688

That RIS looks stupid, but if i was to buy one, that would be it.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:36 am

ummm...had one for about two weeks already...or are you specifically referring to the M4A1, since I have the CQBR model. And have been running tests with it, I passed on the M4A1 when I got the CQBR...you saw the 9 sec action video right?
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Shodan » Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:10 am

I'm refering specificly to the M4A1.

Is the stock the same as a standard TM, or is it different? Because it'd be nice to see the beefy M4 one on there rather than the M733 stock on the standard M4
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Guges Mk3 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:17 am

When comparing to the TM M733 the CQBR is more appropriate. Anyways they both have the same stock and its "heavier" then the TM.
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Re: western arms M4 cqbr

Post by Shodan » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:42 am

No, i mean this stock
Image

vs the M733 style that it comes with.
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