Why not ww2 airsoft?

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unionman
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Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by unionman » Thu May 29, 2008 1:56 pm

Hello,

I'm doing an informal poll about ww2 airsoft and why you, as a modern airsofter who does not do ww2, has not tried out ww2 airsoft. I will use this information to better tailor FAQs and recruiting information for the ww2 airsoft hobby. Please feel free to comment on your answer at length.

Why not ww2 airsoft?

- Not interested in ww2 history
- Cost of uniform and field gear is too high
- Worried about authenticity standards and "attitude" of reenactor types
- Lack of ww2 airsoft weaponry
- Not enough events in the area to warrant the cost
- Nobody portraying the army/unit I'm interested in
- Worried about "far right wing" politics amongst axis forces
- Other

I greatly appreciate your feedback. Thank you!

-Udo
I greatly appreciate your feedback!
http://www.ostfrontairsoft.com

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Mpls, MN

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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by DFSM » Thu May 29, 2008 2:14 pm

I've thought about it a couple of times, but many of the reasons you listed keep me from it.

1. It's just not practical to do an accurate game.

The WW2 games seem to be a bunch of guys with MP40s and M1A1s. True, you can get other weapons, but the guys with SMGs are going to be killing the guys with bolt actions. The advantage of a full length rifle just isn't there in airsoft. If there was some sort of game where SMGs were very limited in number allowed on the field and a way of limiting their affectiveness, that'd make it better. However, there still aren't enough effective rifles to put on a game I'd be interested in playing.

When there is a way to have affordable K98s and Garands that can be easily aquired and enough people spring for them, maybe I'll give it a go.

2. Uniforms and gear are too expensive and the players are generally very picky.

I don't want to buy some repro gear just to get shit from some guy about how the stitching isn't correct or the color is wrong ("That's not khaki!").

3. There aren't enough events that would be particular enough about gear and weapons.

I know I might sound hypocritical here, but if I shell out a whole bunch of money for an authentic impression to be shooting at a guy using an AK47 or an M14. If I convert an AEG into an accurate Garand I don't want to see someone with an AK telling me to pretend it's an MP44.

I have no problems with people doing a German impression, but I don't think they need to rock a swastika or a totenkopf. Someone always needs to play the bad guy, and it can be more fun to play them sometimes. As long as they truly are not Nazi sympathizers I'm fine with it. It's probably best if they do just a Wehrmacht impression instead of a Waffen SS one, though.

If I'm going to do an impression from the past, I'll do Vietnam. It's cheaper and easier to get into, plus the play would be more realistic than WWII games.
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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Chaser » Thu May 29, 2008 3:04 pm

The whole problem with having WW2 airsoft is that you will never see that balance of firepower. Even with affordable Garands, you will never see a high proportion of people with those, because you have to get the Garand below $100 and have it compete against $180 M1A1s, you have to get Kar 98ks below $100 to compete with $180 MP40s. Even then, how many people are going to care about a bolt action rifle when they can get 800 RPM or more out of the AEGs? The big reason that there isn't more automatic weapons fire in WW2 REENACTING is that a Garand is $600-1200 and a Thompson is $10000-15000. The full auto non-gun MP40s are still $1500 and have troubles, vs. a $200 Kar 98k.

The whole reason I did WW2 reenacting was to teach the public and be around the vets. I don't see any real reward from WW2 airsoft. Furthermore, WW2 reenacting as a whole has become more and more difficult to tolerate as people worry more about prices than quality and unit leaders each want their unit to get bigger so they lower their standards to accommodate. Cheaper alternatives are frequently available but some of the major vendors have totally crapped out their products to compete with these Chinese crap-tacular reproductions. It doesn't matter that the pattern is HORRIBLY wrong...its $20!!! This problem is exacerbated in WW2 airsofters with a high portion of kids who do not HAVE the money to do it right, or have the money to do it right but want to be able to fire weapons and thus they start hanging around the farby airsofters and thus the cycle continues.

Don't get me wrong...I'm a "Stitch Nazi" on my own stuff, but less so with others. However, some of the things I've seen are nowhere near correct, including one guy that had some off-color border patrol thing and the fact that a portion of the haircuts frequently look like flashbacks to the "Hair Metal" bands. Frankly, I don't care what people do, but I don't want to be around it. My philosophy is "If you're trying to be something, then TRY to be that". Not everyone shares it, and thats fine...but I don't choose to be involved in it for that. Likewise, people that criticize a 16 year old kid just starting that can name the commanders of the 3rd ID from 1939-1945 and can recite the entire order of battle but is wearing a modern rear seamed M1 helmet getting chewed out because he didn't get a FRONT seam immediately is equally irritating. There are very few middle grounders in reenacting, and there are NONE that I've seen doing WW2 airsofting either.

Hell, if you know a guy lookin' for a good set of gear that has his head out of his tailpipe, I'll cut him a deal so that someone can do it right and afford it as I don't have the time for it between my work, my EMS, volunteer duties, and the Reserves.
~Chaser

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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Venom » Thu May 29, 2008 8:08 pm

There aren't any inexpensive period AEGs - maybe the Thompson but that's it.

Chaser

Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Chaser » Thu May 29, 2008 8:29 pm

Didn't A&K or some other company make the MP40? I know there are some on E-Bay because when I was pricing out some of the stuff that was ALL I could find. I think TOP made some as well.
~Chaser

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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by otherrandomhero » Thu May 29, 2008 8:49 pm

Chaser wrote:Didn't A&K or some other company make the MP40? I know there are some on E-Bay because when I was pricing out some of the stuff that was ALL I could find. I think TOP made some as well.
~Chaser
TOP made one a while ago, and it's the only model by them you can find anymore new in stores (it's about $500). AGM makes a clone of it for about 1/4 of that.

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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by bikemancs » Thu May 29, 2008 9:23 pm

I'd love to do WWII Airsoft, and besides the obvious reason I can't right now, I think the playing field would have an unusually large amount of Thompsons, on both sides, and not many Garands or 98ks. Even on the German side, and half of those would claim "oh, I got it off a dead american"

Now, the game play itself could be very similar with three factions out on the field, the Germans, the Allies, and the resistance if you are in France or Holland (Market Garden)

Advantages of not having to deal with armor rules, or medic rules (you could get away with very basic medic rules--everyone evac'd)

I'd also get pretty pissed if I spent a few hundred dollars on some WWII repo kit and had some guy come up to me and go, "they didn't wear that until 1945, this is 1944"

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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Tank » Thu May 29, 2008 11:33 pm

The single biggest reason I don't have a WW2 impression is the expense of proper kit & uniform(s).
The lack of options for weapons is also a considerable factor.

I have a Thompson and I would not build a WW2 impression around it as there are 9000 assholes with Thompson's already.
BARs are expensive if/when you can find them, the "grease guns" that exist are crap, the Garands are expensive and temperamental, the .30 cal kits look like shit & I haven't seen a good Springfield either.

I would never consider doing a German impression, but even if I did there are even less options for weapons.
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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Faust » Fri May 30, 2008 7:11 am

- Not interested in ww2 history

Thats me.

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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by DFSM » Fri May 30, 2008 12:01 pm

Tank wrote:I have a Thompson and I would not build a WW2 impression around it as there are 9000 assholes with Thompson's already.
Exactly. I don't see the point of making an accurate impression if the majority of people are going to be using fully automatic weapons, because it'd just turn out playing like a normal airsoft game in different uniforms and gear.

If there was a good amount of games (say 4 or 5 a year) that I could go to where there would be weapon regulations I'd probably make an impression. It'd have to be something like one in ten guys can use an smg limited to 300 FPS or under (or having them turn off their hop-up), another one in ten using a support weapon (probably 350 or under) with someone as their assistant, and the rest using their respective bolt action or semi-automatic weapons with whatever the FPS limit is at the field.
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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Wolfwood » Fri May 30, 2008 3:56 pm

If there was a way of doing an accurate reflection of the look and feel of a WWII battle, I would seriously consider it.

However, in airsoft its just not feasible. So I will spend my time investing in things that I am more interested in, and are more feasible.
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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Hionfire » Fri May 30, 2008 6:28 pm

sounds really fun but fun is $$$$money$$$$
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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Jin » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:31 pm

I've thought about trying WWII airsoft a bit, but one of my biggest concerns is my general lack of knowledge regarding the appropriate attire for a WWII and not wanting to get chewed out for my lousy $400 worth of gear impression by someone who knows more about WWII history than me.

Mind you whenever I put together accurate loadout impressions I always like to be the bad guys (Commies, rebel fighters, terrorists, etc.) so if I was to do WWII I'd want to do a Nazi SS impression... and that alone comes with a whole set of problems and worries!

I can put on a red star cap & a chi-com chest rig and run around in the woods with an AK-47 and no one gives me crap or assumes "Hey, he must be an anti-american communist!" but somehow I feel like the moment I step onto the field in an SS uniform people are going to start raising eyebrows. Mind you I'm not a white supremacist or a racist in any way, but hey what can I say, I like playing bad guys :lol: Still though, I do imagine I'd get some questioning looks and possibly harsh words from some people on the field if I was to impersonate a Nazi.

So there's that... and then there's the cost of the uniform. And to be honest, as cool as it would look, I just don't feel it's worth it to me to drop $400+ on a semi-accurate reproduction SS Trooper uniform that I would only use once in a while. The cost of the gun and finding people to play with is no worries to me, but reproduction uniforms are just a bit too pricey for my tastes.


So yeah, to sum it up :

1. I don't want to spend $400+ on a Nazi uniform

2. I don't want people to give me crap or question in feelings towards other races, especially after I just dropped $400 to dress up like a Nazi!

3. I don't want any other WWII airsofters who know more about history than me to give me crap about my possibly inaccurate uniform that set me back "only" $400




All that said, if someone wants to cut me a good deal on an AGM MP40 and a reproduction full SS uniform I'll give it a go :lol:
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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Jonesy » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:45 pm

Yeah right, Jin. If Rachael Ray can't wear a shemagh, I sure as shit won't let you get away with a Nazi SS uniform. I'd have to pound the snot out of you and report you to CNN. Srsly, I'd have to. :-D

As for me?

-Other

Not interested in WW2 Airsoft. (The history I like just fine, thank you very much.)
Last edited by Jonesy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Jin » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:50 pm

That's pretty much what I figured :roll:

I can dress up like Osama Bin Laden and carry around an AKS-74U and no one would think I was a an Al Qaeda member in real life. Most people would probably laugh and find my impression humorous. But a Nazi? Nooooooo! The moment you try dressing up like a Nazi it's nothing but trouble :roll:

Because you know if I put together an accurate impression that cost that much money I wouldn't want to use it just for the occasional once or twice a year WWII game, I'd want to use my loadout frequently at open sessions. And dressing up like a Nazi at open sessions...well, Jonesy's response about sums up the reaction I think I'd get from most people.
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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Jonesy » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:55 pm

Jin wrote:That's pretty much what I figured :roll:

I can dress up like Osama Bin Laden and carry around an AKS-74U and no one would think I was a an Al Qaeda member in real life.
Probably because you're like an eighty five pound white guy. Not the most "stereotypical" of Al Qaeda members.


Also, see that big smiley face at the end of my first post? It's used to imply humor and disrupt the otherwise serious threat of me pounding the snot out of you. :roll:

Dress up however you want. I guarantee I'll catch more flak for wearing my bearsuit to any of the bullshitish "milsim" games 'round n'yah than you would for wearing an SS uniform to an event.
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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Jin » Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:17 pm

LOL!
Hey! To be fair I'm like 130 lbs :lol:

But alrighty then... you do the bear suit thing and I'll make my Nazi impression a bit more acceptable by wearing it over a German Shepherd suit.

Just put an SS overcoat ontop of this and I'll be good to go --->

Image


:lol:

But seriously, back on topic now...
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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Chaser » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:28 am

It isn't as bad as you think, as long as you act decent. I started off VERY embarrassed when I did German FJ, because I am highly dedicated to our veterans...but the sides were lopsided, and the German guys seemed more interested in cheesy death throes than trying to put on a good fight.

In my mind, and those of many veterans, by respecting the adversary, you are honoring both. When I say "honoring" the [once] enemy, I mean that presenting it accurately. If you're doing an SS impression then discussing the motivations on why they felt how they did. I did FJ because I never had to do the Nazi salute (even the SS reenactors don't though), and because when I talked to the veterans, they said "Those men were some of the toughest guys we've fought".

Furthermore, you are honoring the US soldier by doing the German soldier well. The Germans inflicted 50% more casualties than they received, and many were wounded multiple times over. Attrition and lack of supplies, followed by a micromanaging dictators descent into mania were the biggest killers. If you show that the Germans fought hard and fought well, it does justice by the US soldier because the US soldiers found many to be a worthy and noble adversary. If the US lost so many soldiers against Sgt. Schultze types, then what does that say about *OUR* training? Our guys were great, full of heart, and BOTH sides fought for the same thing: Duty, Honor, Country. Talking about some of the more "human" sides of war like the Huertgen Forest and that is another good way to show what you're trying.

If you do SS, make sure not to do the Nazi salute. For obvious reasons this is not recommended. Don't wear ANY German uniforms longer than you have to (should apply to ALL uniforms, but especially with others). Don't make jokes pertaining to Nazism, Fascism, or that....if you follow those and go with common sense, most will give you a chance to at least explain why you chose it.
Jon

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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by unionman » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:46 pm

Thanks very much for the responses. The conversation is very telling about people's perceptions of ww2 airsoft. Please allow me to address some of the topics raised in the thread:

1) Inaccurate weapon mixes/lack of K98s Garands/Can't do ww2 realistically

I won't beat around the bush on this one. A lack of reasonably priced rifles and and excessive numbers of AEGs (Thompsons and MP40s) is one of the greatest weaknesses of ww2 airsoft at the moment. However, the situation is getting better. Our unit, for example, has very dedicated members that build and buy custom made springer K98s. Of our 12 German players, I believe 8 have K98s at the moment. Similarly our Russian comrades create and sell custom carbine rifles and PPSh AEGs. The Chinese appear to be ramping up production for reasonably priced ww2 guns. The cheap AEG Thompsons and MP40s are a recent addition and Dboys just released a cartridge loading K98 (a bad choice that missed the mark, but it's good to see an attempt). The good news is that for those that are willing to spend the money can get a rifle. The bad news is that the more authentic weapons (ie more common) are pricey while the submachine guns are cheap. My guess is that more Chinese made offerings will spring up in the future and we will have a AEG Garand, MG42, etc in the not so distant future that will help the situation greatly.

Regarding the observation that ww2 fighting just isn't feasible to recreate, I don't think that ww2 airsoft is any less accurate or feasible than any other milsim airsoft period. To put it mildly, airsoft is always going to be quite different from real combat of any sort due to the nature of airsoft guns themselves. A bush or plywood fort doesn't stop real bullets. We have devised some pretty ingenious ways to help balance the AEGs with rifles in our group. Usually riflemen (single action) get at least one more respawn in a given scenario which helps even things up. With the addition of armored vehicles and crewed anti-tank guns, we've done a good job at bringing a ww2 feel to our games. In short, I don't think you can criticize ww2 airsoft for being any less realistic than any other time period.

2) Picky players/afraid to buy the wrong gear/worried about criticism

Not to be too hard on our reenactor brothers, but these problems are something that they have brought into ww2 airsoft. It's a shame that many have not realized that being unfriendly and elitist is not a good way to grow your hobby. Still, this is something easily avoided by joining a good group. Our organization, the MOA, is pretty easy going for your first couple of events and then we expect you to start improving. In general, this hasn't been a problem for us. Most people know what they're getting into and like getting the authentic gear anyhow. The best way to avoid getting the wrong thing is to not go it alone but to lean on others for advice on what to get. In general we aim to be a happy middleground between maximum authenticity and farbery. I don't think that airsoft needs to be quite in alignment with reenactor standards, although many of our individual impressions meet or exceed reenactor standards. In the field during a game, nobody will notice that the "stitches per inch" on your tunic is" wrong!" On the other hand, this isn't a costume contest and we like to see people take authenticity seriously to a point.

3) Not enough events to warrant the cost

Due to an explosion of ww2 events in Wisconsin, there's really no shortage of events. If you're willing to drive 2-5 hours one can attend at least 6 games per year in the midwest. If you want to travel nationally there are many more. The Wisconsin ww2 airsoft seen is literally the most active in the nation. This year will see at least 5-6 events just in Wisconsin. Our hopes are to have at least a couple of Minnesota events to add to the roster. There are lots of events and more and more every year!

4) Standards too low/playing with modern players who haven't made the investment

This is a point of discussion amongst ww2 airsoft. How "open" should we be to "partisans" and other less developed impressions? The short answer is that, to date, we have chosen to be more open than exclusive. It is our hope that gear envy and the joy of looking cool will eventually take root with new players. Our rule of thumb is that you can do two events as a partisan and non-ww2 weapon and then it's time to s**t or get off the pot. Going the other direction risks taking us into reenactor/elitist land. So far it's been a good compromise and has worked well. My guess is that as the hobby becomes more popular we will hold more "exclusive" events that require a full military impression without exception.

5) ww2 kit is too expensive

There's no way around it. This is not a cheap hobby when it comes to uniform and kit. German impressions are outlandishly expensive. USA impressions are somewhere in the middle. If you want a cheap impression, Russian is the way to go. Still, at the end of the day, the cost of doing ww2 airsoft won't change. My guess is that this is our biggest limiter to interest. Still, the financial outlay required probably insures that we get a slightly more committed/mature player than some other types of airsoft.

6) Ethical issues with doing German impressions

This is ultimately something that each individual needs to address to his own standards. I can say with 100% confidence that I have not run into any right wing creeps in ww2 airsoft. There's much more of that kind of thing in reenacting than airsoft. Our group does regular German Army (Heer) but most German groups seem to do FJ or SS (everybody wants to be "elite"). At the end of the day, here's how I justify it. We don't get to pick where we are born and we fight for the country we live in. We try to be very sensitive to these concerns and we are very intolerant of any fascist or extremist stuff. It really isn't an issue in ww2 airsoft. We just want to play war! :)

Thanks!

-Udo
http://www.ostfrontairsoft.com

Unteroffizier Udo Schaaf, Gruppe West, 3 Panzergrenadier Division
Mpls, MN

Chaser

Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Chaser » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:15 pm

Jin, if you want to learn about doing German paratroopers right, and also separating a lot of myth from fact, as well as getting into accurate impressions on that or US let me know. I've been recreating German and US Airborne since before Band of Brothers. It was the ultimate link between my love for military, my love for history, and my love for aviation....and seeing as I did a medic, it linked that in there as well. lol.

I can provide a number of resources, although again, most of mine is airborne. I think I still have some pictures around here of my hanging out with the CASA 352 (post war JU-52). I miss that old bird :(. I've also got some pics of my US Airborne impression and even Japanese para impression. Likewise, I have both photos of my impressions (I gave it up when I was sworn into the Army Reserves....I didn't have time), and also a large number of ORIGINAL photos.

Union, I would be willing to help to some degree as well, although coming from a reenacting perspective I am more concerned with making sure that the story is told right than "playing war". I don't plan on picking up WW2 airsoft, but I'd be happy to help you get some guys who may be interested in learning to pick up a vast amount of information. I have thousands in reference books on airborne in WW2, and have actively researched the development of most airborne forces, including Soviet, Italian, German, American, and Japanese paratroopers.
Jon

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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by Jonesy » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:54 am

OMG, your infomercial reminiscent counter argument for everyones feeling and/or opinions on why they don't do WW2 Airsoft has shown me the light, Union! /sarcasm.

Nope!! Still not interested.

Srsly, that was like listening to someone try to sell a timeshare. ;-)

:D :) :D :) :D :) :wink: :) :D :) :D :) :D

But I'm now totally inspired to jet over to a WW2 Airsoft site and post a questionnaire asking why they don't do Modern Airsoft. lulz
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Re: Why not ww2 airsoft?

Post by unionman » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:19 am

:roll:
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